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  1. #101

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    Patrick>>>>>Sasha>>>Fumie*

    *My summary of two recent Trash Can threads for the obtuse.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    :O OMG

    Shizuka has always come off so mature and classy, not catty at all
    And Fumie seems to have a good relationship with the American skaters like Sasha and Michelle

    I'd say most of the time, yes, Shizuka seems very classy and reserved. She has displayed some sassiness in the past though. During one warm-up, (2003 Skate America or Skate Canada, don't remember which one) the queen of warm-up tactics, Sasha Cohen was getting in her way and Shizuka was having none of it. That's when her nickname Divakawa was born.

  3. #103
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    In the true definition of what a skater is- edges, stroking, speed, flow, Fumie is a better skater than Sasha. Why is that so hard to understand.

  4. #104
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    In achievements Sasha's only edge is her Olympic silver.

    Fumie has the huge edge of all her National titles. Where Sasha couldnt put it together at Nationals and kept falling them and placing 2nd, Fumie shone at Nationals and winning the title 4 or 5 times I believe. That more than negates Sasha's lucky Olympic silver.

  5. #105
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    Cohen would have had 4 or 5 too if she didn't have to compete against Kwan. Fumie never had a skater of that magnitude to compete against so that's hardly fair to compare them...

    I also doubt Fumie was 100% clean to win every national title, as Cohen would have to be to overtake Kwan.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    Cohen would have had 4 or 5 too if she didn't have to compete against Kwan. Gumie never had a skater of that magnitude to compete against so that's hardly fair to compare them...

    I also doubt Fumie was 100% clean to win every national title, as Cohen would have to be to overtake Kwan.
    Yeah Sasha faced an old and past her best Kwan, but an otherwise super weak U.S field. U.S ladies were already dropping off, who were the other top skaters of that period- Jenny Kirk, Bebe Liang, an old Amber Corwin. What a joke. The slump of U.S women which exists to this day was already well underway.

    Sasha wouldnt have won 4 or 5 Japanese titles. People like Asada and Ando would jump her off the ice and beat her easily. Suguri beat such people to win all those titles. Fumie always skated her best at Japanese Nationals, better than she skated anywhere else, so she could have possibly beaten an old and diminished Kwan which Sasha couldnt do not because Kwan was so great by then but because she couldnt keep her dress off the ice.

  7. #107

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    Well, Fumie never beat Kwan ever, while in major international competition, Sasha did twice. Also, internationally, Cohen was clearly considered a gold medal contender by 2006, while Fumie was not. Also, it's not as if competing against a past-her-prime Kwan was easy. A past-her-prime Kwan still proved to be considered a top three skater if we go by World results. Yes, I know she placed 4th in Moscow, but her SP and LP were placed third. I will say though that the Japanese field during 2003-2006 was much deeper than the U.S. field.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well, Fumie never beat Kwan ever, while in major international competition, Sasha did twice.
    Fumie peaks at Nationals though so could have beaten old Kwan at Nationals. She didnt even face old Kwan much internationally, I think the only times were the 2003, 2004, and 2005 worlds. 2003 world Kwan was on fire and untouchable, but 2004 worlds Fumie took herself out of winning the world title with the qualifying round (and remember she always beat Shizuka until then and Shizuka won which means Fumie probably would have), and 2005 she would have beaten Kwan easily without all her mistakes. Kwan had a few too, but by then she was usually making mistakes anyway.

    By contrast to Fumie, Sasha skated her best at worlds and Olympics. So that she has barely more medals there speaks more in favor of Fumie who hits her peak at Nationals.

  9. #109
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    In 2005 btw Fumie beat world champion Arakawa, whiz kid who was already probably best in the world Asada, and 2 time world champion Ando to win Nationals. She would have had no problems beating a subpar Kwan. In 2006 she beat Arakawa and Asada, Asada the best skater in the world that year. She would have won that year too, which would leave Cohen with 0 National titles if Fumie was American. The U.S ladies sucked after 2006, so Fumie continuing probably wins every U.S Nationals until 2011 or so. She would own Sasha even worse in National titles if she were American, rather than Japanese.

    So Fumie's career owns Sasha's.

  10. #110

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    I like the way you're able to be so logically confident in what are really just suppositions.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I like the way you're able to be so logically confident in what are really just suppositions.
    Well so are those who are saying "Fumie would never win U.S Nationals facing Michelle Kwan." Fact is Fumie has a bunch of Japanese National titles and Sasha a mere 1 of hers, and Japanese women are deeper than the U.S. Edge Fumie.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    On a different note, I'm rather dubious about Cohen's talent however as a skater.
    Me, too.

  13. #113

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    Unfair to assess until we see how Suguri does this next quad...

  14. #114
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    Yeah Fumie might just light the world on fire this quad. A world title or two and an Olympic medal in Korea would put this discussion clearly in her favor. That is well within her grasp.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripingroar37 View Post
    Yeah Sasha faced an old and past her best Kwan, but an otherwise super weak U.S field. U.S ladies were already dropping off, who were the other top skaters of that period- Jenny Kirk, Bebe Liang, an old Amber Corwin. What a joke. The slump of U.S women which exists to this day was already well underway.

    Sasha wouldnt have won 4 or 5 Japanese titles. People like Asada and Ando would jump her off the ice and beat her easily. Suguri beat such people to win all those titles. Fumie always skated her best at Japanese Nationals, better than she skated anywhere else, so she could have possibly beaten an old and diminished Kwan which Sasha couldnt do not because Kwan was so great by then but because she couldnt keep her dress off the ice.
    "Old and past her best Kwan" won worlds in 2000, Olympic and world medals in 2002, won worlds in 2003, and won the bronze at worlds in 2004 despite injury. Further injured she placed 4th in 2005. All those years she beat Cohen at Nationals.

    I would say "old and past her best Kwan" was a worthy adversary, wouldn't you?

    Fumie won her titles in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2006.

    2001: Beat Shizuka and also Yoshie Onda. Shizuka placed 6th at 4CC and didn't go to worlds, Yoshie placed 3rd at 4CC. Fumie really had some stiff competition here from the Japan depth.....

    2002: Beat Shizuka and Ando. Shizuka again didn't go to worlds but got the bronze at 4CC. Miki was still a Junior and was placing well in Juniors, but realistically was not stiff competition at that point.

    2003: Beat Yoshie again, and then Shizuka. Yoshie was 11th at worlds, Shizuka was 8th. Again, not the stiffest of competition for Ms. Suguri. Ando placed pretty low at Nationals, but let's remember that all these ladies were young.

    2006: Beat Mao and Shizuka which actually was impressive

    ....I wouldn't say Fumie was at all challenged at Nationals by anyone nearly as good as Cohen let alone Kwan. The exception was 2006 when Shizuka was finally established and Mao was a promising star. Fumie didn't win titles in 2004-2005, just like Sasha was usurped at US Nats. She walked to most of her JPN titles just like Sasha would have had Kwan not been around.
    Last edited by cbd1235; 04-19-2014 at 07:16 AM.

  16. #116
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    Fumie did not deserve the 2006 National title at all. Mao was purposely held down in the scores because they knew she wasnt going to the Games, and they didnt want to send the message their Olypmians were inferior to some underaged skater. The plan all along was for Shizuka to win nationals, Fumie to be 2nd, Mao 3rd. However Shizuka faltering in the LP led to her dropping from 1st to 3rd, and Fumie winning. Mao landed her triple lutz-triple loop cleanly in the short and was placed below Shizuka and Fumie, something that would never happen with an international panel. She then skated a spectacular long with her triple axel and a 3-3. Internationally she would crush Fumie with the same skates. If Mao were Olympic bound she would have won Nationals that year by a good 15 points or more.

  17. #117
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    Am I misunderstanding something? Surely it's better to peak at major international competitions rather than at Nationals? At Nationals a skater should just do enough to get to the international events. International titles are always worth more.

  18. #118
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    Actually, Fumie had to win Nationals to get on the Olympic team, if I'm remembering things correctly. That was when the JSF used a cumulative point system and Fumie was on the cusp for the 3rd spot so it was believed they scored her very generously to get her the title so she can go. I remember quite clearly there were grumblings about how the Olympic team was predetermined and was always going to be Shizuka, Miki, and Fumie. Yukari Nakano however, was very close to spoiling their plans by skating well on the GP and getting on the podium at GPF. So I think the last spot was between Fumie and Yukari, not Miki and Yukari that is brought up more often. Miki had more points than Fumie prior to Nationals, hence why she placed 6th and was still able to go to Torino. Also, Miki was popular with the public at the time and had sponsors closely connected with the JSF, so that also added fuel to the claims that Miki was gifted a spot on the team.

    I do agree that Mao's scores were a bit stingy because she wasn't able to go to Torino. That was the first time she landed 2 triple axels in a LP, IIRC.

  19. #119
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    It sounds like Fumie's 2006 national title was very political based. That is what I remember hearing people saying at the time. It is frankly hard to believe she can beat a cleanish Mao bringing out the big guns like that ever legitimately. She simply isnt a good enough skater.

    It is kind of a farce Miki would be ensured getting on the team in 2006 no matter what. I could understand 2010 but in 2006 she was in no way worthy of that. Shizuka and Fumie were both much better skaters (and Mao but she wasnt a factor for the games) and it is not like she had any really impressive results I can think of. She should have had to earn her spot at Nationals just like Nakano and the rest, and clearly didnt do that.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well, Fumie never beat Kwan ever, while in major international competition, Sasha did twice.
    Michelle isnt the be all and end all of skating though. It is not like Fumie was incapable of ever beating Michelle, had she skated half decent at the 2005 worlds she would have beaten her there too, just as Sasha did. One could turn around and say Fumie has beaten Mao several times, while Sasha never did. Fumie even beat Yu Na Kim in her career, could Sasha have ever done so? Sasha probably matches up better vs Michelle than Fumie does, since Fumie's lack of extension, leg line, and other flaws stand out more next to the polish of Michelle who is too consistent to lose to skaters who cant beat her on their own merits; while Sasha who can match Michelle in those areas compares more favorably. There are others though where Fumie's much better basics and stronger jumpers would stand her in better stead than Sasha who is visibly lacking in those areas.

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