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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by docktrump View Post
    Maria did place over Michelle Kwan in the short program I think 6 times from 97-2001. Some of those Kwan had a major mistake, but some of those she didn't and still placed behind, and there are other times Maria might have without a mistake too. Overall Michelle was still by far the better short program skater of course, but Maria was a legitimate rival to Kwan in the short program. It is the long program where she was no competition for Michelle over the years. Maria was a very good short program skater and a true contender in that portion over years, and a mediocre and inconsistent long program skater. Her SLC SP was probably one of the poorest clean shorts she ever did, which is why she placed low. The elements were mostly shaky and of low quality, and the performance was slow, stiff, and scared looking. She has done tons of short programs in her career way better than SLC though.

    Sarah Hughes decided otherwise.
    I still say that shouldn't have happened! With the "ordinal system," Sarah should have only gotten silver but for putting Michelle in first after the short program with a 2-footed triple flip! If it was a travesty in Russia with generous scoring for their compatriots, our country benefitted as well and was just as guilty! Irina pretty much owned Michelle by then and no way in any other circumstance would she have even sniffed Gold in SLC!

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    I still say that shouldn't have happened! With the "ordinal system," Sarah should have only gotten silver but for putting Michelle in first after the short program with a 2-footed triple flip! If it was a travesty in Russia with generous scoring for their compatriots, our country benefitted as well and was just as guilty! Irina pretty much owned Michelle by then and no way in any other circumstance would she have even sniffed Gold in SLC!
    Yeah Irina should have won the short and thus the gold in Salt Lake City. Sarah should have been 7th or 8th in the short program. Cohen should have beaten Kwan in the long program and won silver overall. Bronze to Kwan or Hughes overall, even with Hughes probably being 1st in the LP. The judging was a farce.

  3. #203

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    Maybe Kwan got payback for the 2002 GPF.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maybe Kwan got payback for the 2002 GPF.
    I suppose that was a travesty, but how many titles did Michelle take that she didn't earn? What was worse was one of those pro-am events in Canada where Josée Chouinard fell 3 or 4 times and they still gave it to her; Michelle was at a loss! That was so funny; the looks, grins, and eye rolls were priceless! It was almost as hilarious as the GPF you mentioned! MK was on the way down and on the outs with judges probably! lol!

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maybe Kwan got payback for the 2002 GPF.
    In the end it didn't help Kwan though, it just helped make an undeserving skater (Hughes) the Olympic Champion. I am sure Irina would trade her her iffy grand prix final title that year, which she would still have a bunch of deserved ones of left anyway, for the Olympic Gold she never got. I bet if she won in Salt Lake, even with a subpar long program, she also would have been more relaxed and won easily in Turin too and be a 2 time Olympic Champion today. She choked in Turin the same reason Kwan choked in SLC, the immense pressure of the last chance at the Olympic gold, the holy grail of the sport, and the lone prize she didn't have.

  6. #206

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    Oh, the unfairness of it all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    I suppose that was a travesty, but how many titles did Michelle take that she didn't earn? What was worse was one of those pro-am events in Canada where Josée Chouinard fell 3 or 4 times and they still gave it to her; Michelle was at a loss! That was so funny; the looks, grins, and eye rolls were priceless! It was almost as hilarious as the GPF you mentioned! MK was on the way down and on the outs with judges probably! lol!
    Oh yeah, that Kwan really ended up such loser with all those titles and medals she won afterwards. I guess when a skater you hate wins as much as she did or at least lose but still skate respectfully, a detractor has to grab on to that Pro-Am that she lost. I'm sure Kwan never lived that one down.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #207
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    I think Fiero's point is the judges were contradicting upon his/her perceived blatant favoritism of Kwan from them for years previous, by blatantly robbing her at event by a splatty Josee. I don't consider Kwan as held up/gifted as he/she probably does. I do think she was on the overscored side a bit, and got some boost from her name, but that is true of atleast 80% of skaters who become legendary and are from a powerful country, so I wouldn't begrude her specifically of that. However he/she probably isn't the only one who feels Kwan was a judges pet or held up figure over time. It is not like Kwan is the only one who has a number of people having that perception of them, many have that perception (rightly or wrongly) of Chan, Gritschuk & Platov, Baiul, Cohen, Duchensays, recently Davis & White, Volosozhar & Trankov, Sotnikova, Lysacek, and who knows how many others. Probably some of those that perception holds even more strongly than Kwan, I do notice Chan and Sotnikova and Baiul especialy tend to get bashed upon a lot for the judges scores of them. I think people in this sport just naturally like to complain and it would take a lot to have them totally satisfied. There are very few skaters people probably perceive as neither overrated/overscored, underrated/underscored, or a combination of both at different times. Being a judge is the most thankless job there is in this sport, and even more when as far as I know they aren't even payed (other than those who accept backroom deals/bribes).

    I also don't think that particular result was even necessarily wrong, just as I don't consider Kwan as held up and as huge a judges favorite over the years as some others might. Josee did fall and did many less triples than Michelle but she had a program ideally suited to the pro am format, while Kwan did not, just doing the type of pretty program she would do in any other competition. That is why Josee won with her ingenius Mime routine, even with a far technically inferior effort. That loss didn't mean much to Kwan, but it meant a lot to Josee as she mentioned in her book. Josee's whole pro career meant a lot to her as she gained the confidence and self belief to allow her talents to come through and do well in competitions, something she desperately wanted to do as an amateur and was good enough to, but could never muster the self belief or confidence to deliver. Something that also pains her greatly, as she speaks about in her book, and why any of her noteable pro achievements were meaningful to her.

  8. #208
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    I'm a "he" and I only call it like I see 'em! I definitely was no fan of Kwan's and it didn't bother me in the least when she was cheated out of a couple wins here and there! It happened enough to other skaters when she was subpar! Going back to when she was only 13 I thought she was overscored and held up, but that's nothing new as other people well know! I've seen Chan flop all over the place and barely lose; once by the 3 points deducted for falls! It's one reason the sport isn't taken seriously, but is still the featured event of the Winter Olympics! They've even created a team event to get them out there more besides the added exhibitions! No other sport abuses their athletes this much!

  9. #209
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    If one thinks Kwan was regularly overmarked/held up/overrated/judges pet/USFSA pet hopefully after seeing Chan's last few years she doesn't seem as bad anymore. Lets face it, even if she was overrated, it is hard for it to compare what we have seen with Chan. Atleast Michelle wasn't held up when she fell 3 or 4 times, except Nationals 97 but mostly over fairly weak skaters/others who bombed. Chan could do that in world level competition and still beat really good skaters who skated really well.

    I will admit with Kwan the hype machine and euphoria from the USFSA, ABC, Kwan fanatics, was sickening (and unlike you I liked Kwan), and the string of mostly bogus 6.0s she got for just showing up and skating well at Nationals was off putting. However those things don't neccessarily equate to too many placements she didn't earn.

    I used to think Kwan was to blame for Sasha's lack of confidence and failure to win major titles. Living in Kwan's shadow, and knowing the USFSA and judges loved Kwan more than her probably even if she skated well. However after the last few years of her amateur career I cant think that anymore. She had chances to win all the major titles in 2004-2006 without Kwan a hugefactor anymore, especialy 2004 worlds, 2006 worlds, and with the mistakes/downgrading of Shizuka and Slutskaya the 2006 Olympics too. She failed each time. 2003, 2004, and 2005 Nationals the judges were giving her signs they might have been willilng to put her over even a clean Kwan, and she fell and lost each time. 2002 Olympics she might have even had a chance to win, despite not being a strong gold contender going in. 2000 Nationals she could have won as a 15 year old if she didn't fall on a simple triple toe, the same jump that cost her the 2004 U.S title. Now I have to believe she would have underachieved and not lived up to her billing, even had Kwan retired after 2002 as many expected her to. Kwan's immense shadow and possible favoritism/bias with the USFSA and judges might have been a factor, but only a minor one.

    Contrast that to Fumie who is such a bulldog. An unspectacular and immensely flawed skater, with nothing spectacular about her, and who cant even do a decent layback, spiral, flutzes, and cant even straighten her leg properly. However a bulldog who fought and made the most of her only marginally good talents, winning her Nationals several times in an era of far more talented Japanese women than her like Shiz, young Mao, Ando, and winning 3 world medals and a large collection of international medals. Sasha just needed Fumie's fighting heart and determination and she would have dominated.
    Last edited by docktrump; 07-13-2014 at 01:54 AM.

  10. #210
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    True enough! This thread made my info/reference blog where I save it to go back to when needed! Thanks!

    - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2014/0...38320674973985 -

    I still believe if Michelle had left sooner, Sasha could have come into her own!
    Last edited by Fiero425; 07-13-2014 at 02:09 AM.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    True enough! This thread made my info/reference blog where I save it to go back to when needed! Thanks!

    - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2014/0...38320674973985 -

    I still believe if Michelle had left sooner, Sasha could have come into her own!
    Who knows for sure. I just think if this were true she would have come into her own from 2004 worlds-2006 worlds, and perhaps continued beyond. Kwan was no worry for her in this period, other than 2005 Nationals where she even only had to beat an unexceptional Kwan. She still couldn't make hay it turned out, and continued to fall when it mattered. Just as she had when Kwan's huge presence was in her face.

  12. #212

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    NVM.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 07-13-2014 at 03:05 AM.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by docktrump View Post
    Yeah it is a travesty we are even comparing the careers of Sasha and Fumie when Sasha was about 5 times more talented. Nothing against Fumie, I like her a lot, hard working and dedicated, good all around, quiet and humble, and obviously loves skating to keep doing it into her 30s. She isn't a special talent like Sasha though.

    Cohen may have been more talented as a gymnast, but as a skater, Suguri was more talented.

  14. #214
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    Fumie never had the talent to become a world champion. Sasha obviously did, despite not winning one. Fumie didn't even have the talent to be an Olympic medalist, considering she couldn't medal in the splatfests in 2002 and 2006 with her own best skating. Sasha had the talent to win an Olympic gold once or twice, and it was considered a disappointment when she didn't. That already makes it obvious which was more talented.

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    ^ You are confusing actual results with talent.

  16. #216
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    What is Fumie's huge talent. Good skating skills but nowhere near the level of Kwan, Arakawa, or even Slutskaya. Good footwork but nowhere near the level of Kwan or Slutskaya. Good jumps when she did them, but not amazing, and inconsistent. Sasha atleast has gorgeous lines, positions, elegance, and first rate spins, spirals, and jump rotation.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    What is Fumie's huge talent. Good skating skills but nowhere near the level of Kwan, Arakawa, or even Slutskaya. Good footwork but nowhere near the level of Kwan or Slutskaya. Good jumps when she did them, but not amazing, and inconsistent. Sasha atleast has gorgeous lines, positions, elegance, and first rate spins, spirals, and jump rotation.
    Sasha was so mesmerizing on the ice, during her "Romeo & Juliet" exhibition after Worlds, Buttons and Fleming couldn't speak! They just let the performance speak for itself! Even during the replays of some elements, there was just silence! That never happens!

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    Sasha was so mesmerizing on the ice, during her "Romeo & Juliet" exhibition after Worlds, Buttons and Fleming couldn't speak! They just let the performance speak for itself! Even during the replays of some elements, there was just silence! That never happens!
    Exactly. Which is why I nearly split my side laughing at anyone calling Fumie more talented than Sasha. Nothing against Fumie, but she was just a good second tier kind of skater, even at her best. You would never be mesmerized or in awe of anything she did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    Exactly. Which is why I nearly split my side laughing at anyone calling Fumie more talented than Sasha. Nothing against Fumie, but she was just a good second tier kind of skater, even at her best. You would never be mesmerized or in awe of anything she did.
    Well, that's already good to be a good second tie kind of skater.
    My problem with Sasha is that I can't forget her flaws when I watch her. Fumie is more of an all around skater, nothing spectacular, but nothing particularly shocking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    What is Fumie's huge talent. Good skating skills but nowhere near the level of Kwan, Arakawa, or even Slutskaya. Good footwork but nowhere near the level of Kwan or Slutskaya. Good jumps when she did them, but not amazing, and inconsistent. Sasha atleast has gorgeous lines, positions, elegance, and first rate spins, spirals, and jump rotation.

    We were comparing Fumie to Sasha so I don't know what Kwan or Slutskaya have to do with that.

    As far as the actual skating was concerned (and that was what I was talking about above), Fumie had better speed and flow across the ice, deeper and smoother edges and softer knees while stroking. Those are things which have to do with talent in skating and not how high you can raise your leg in a spiral.

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