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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minou View Post
    Z was putting more effort into "coaching" Navka than prepping for the most important competition... Four hours a day en route to another ice rink, it's said.
    You gotta give it to him - he's a very thorough coach

  2. #162
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    I also think T&D were very foolish to change their free dance (for the worse) after they actually won Europeans. U&Z's free dance should have been scrapped altogether, so I don't think any changes would have been of use. I absolutely LOVED G&P's free dance - the incredible speed and audacity with which they performed it. I know people say it was a poor dance, but I have yet to see another performance by an "underdog" which would leave such an impression on me. They attacked the two legendary champion teams with all the impertinence and ignorance of youth and won!

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I also think T&D were very foolish to change their free dance (for the worse) after they actually won Europeans. U&Z's free dance should have been scrapped altogether, so I don't think any changes would have been of use. I absolutely LOVED G&P's free dance - the incredible speed and audacity with which they performed it. I know people say it was a poor dance, but I have yet to see another performance by an "underdog" which would leave such an impression on me. They attacked the two legendary champion teams with all the impertinence and ignorance of youth and won!
    T&D's ego is bigger than the whole of England, especialy Dean, so I wouldnt be surprised that they didnt win every program at Europeans with all 1st places and all perfect 6.0s even now in their mid 30s meant the FD had to be scrapped, even after a huge success (winning Europeans over their 2 main rivals for the Oly gold). Yeah I agree U&Z on the other hand should have scrapped their FD and started a whole brand new one. However as I said I doubt they wanted to spend that much extra time on the ice together which would be needed to do that, you really need to work overtime if you are creating a new FD to try and win Oly gold with in 6 weeks, and since they only lost Europeans on an unlucky and flukish ordinal flip they probably decided to just take their chances and see how it went.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minou View Post
    I found it natural that U+Z changed their style in 1994. They wanted to show their edge; it worked for their K+P in 1992.

    But it's also true their mutual loathing became palatable, and Z was putting more effort into "coaching" Navka than prepping for the most important competition... Four hours a day en route to another ice rink, it's said.
    Well he lost the Olympic gold by .1. Hope he thinks his 4 hours a day of driving, when he should have been prepping to get better for the Games after their Europeans failure, just to get an early start on whoring around with some girl who many years later divorced him after pulling a Zhulin on him was worth it.

  5. #165
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    As much as I love Grishuk & Platov, their rock'n'roll FD that year was choreographically one of the weakest free dances they ever did. It had moments of brilliance though and it was brilliantly youthful, exuberant, and jazzy. On the other hand, Usova & Zhulin had perhaps what was the most difficult free dance of their careers although it really sucked stylistically. I think perhaps Torvill & Dean reinstating was a mistake. They were already legends and so they didn't need another gold medal to solidify their status. But hey, if they hadn't returned, we wouldn't have seen that masterpiece of a rhumba.

  6. #166
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    Double post
    Last edited by gk_891; 04-11-2014 at 02:17 PM.

  7. #167
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    I also think T&D were very foolish to change their free dance (for the worse) after they actually won Europeans.
    They changed about 80% of the programme. Probably too much. But I can understand the rationale behind this. That's true they won Europeans, but it was the result of some strange rules. And they lost FD, so I'm not surprised they lost confidence and panicked. Probably if they hadn't changed the programme, they would have still lost. Maybe they would have been 2nd at best. We will never know. Changes of the programme made it more spectacular. And although the judges didn't like it, the spectators loved it (much more than during the Europeans).

    I think perhaps Torvill & Dean reinstating was a mistake. They were already legends and so they didn't need another gold medal to solidify their status.
    I don't think it was mistake and I bet they don't regret it. They gained lots of new fans and it was a great promotion for their world tour that followed.

    But hey, if they hadn't returned, we wouldn't have seen that masterpiece of a rhumba.
    This!!! In my opinion it is the best OD/SD ever. So I'm really happy that they returned.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Well he lost the Olympic gold by .1. Hope he thinks his 4 hours a day of driving, when he should have been prepping to get better for the Games after their Europeans failure, just to get an early start on whoring around with some girl who many years later divorced him after pulling a Zhulin on him was worth it.
    This post made me laugh - Zhulin galloping to get an early start

  9. #169
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    After the 91-92 season, Dubova's work started to become shoddier and shoddier. She's always been great at teaching good strong basics but her students' programs started to seriously suck after the fall of the Soviet Union. Her work with Navka & Gezalian was pretty good until they left her though. I vaguely recall at the 92 Worlds on the CBC commentary where Paul Martini mentioned how Dubova's choreographer (can't recall her name) had constructed amazing programs for Dubova's pupils. I wonder if Dubova stopped working with her at around that time. If that was the case, that might explain why her students' programs became rather second rate.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    T&D's ego is bigger than the whole of England, especialy Dean, so I wouldnt be surprised that they didnt win every program at Europeans with all 1st places and all perfect 6.0s even now in their mid 30s meant the FD had to be scrapped, even after a huge success (winning Europeans over their 2 main rivals for the Oly gold).
    Yes to all of this! T&D's sense of entitlement made Lloyd Eisler look like prince charming.

    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    After the 91-92 season, Dubova's work started to become shoddier and shoddier. She's always been great at teaching good strong basics but her students' programs started to seriously suck after the fall of the Soviet Union. Her work with Navka & Gezalian was pretty good until they left her though. I vaguely recall at the 92 Worlds on the CBC commentary where Paul Martini mentioned how Dubova's choreographer (can't recall her name) had constructed amazing programs for Dubova's pupils. I wonder if Dubova stopped working with her at around that time. If that was the case, that might explain why her students' programs became rather second rate.
    Maybe or Pasha Grishuk broke her
    Last edited by Xela M; 04-11-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    Yes to all of this! T&D's sense of entitlement made Lloyd Eisler look like price
    Considering that t&d were treated like god's gift to the sport during their early 80s hay day, complete with historic all perfect marks at the olys, I'd say it isn't hard to imagine how one could get a little big headed.

    B&E have two oly bronzes for horrendous mistake filled routines. 92 was a splat fest and 94 S&N wuz robbed IMO, so Lloyd's big head seems to have come from within. His skating was certainly nothing to write home about,

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    Maybe or Pasha Grishuk broke her
    I wouldn't go that far. I think her students leaving her (due to her favouring Usova & Zhulin) and then becoming champions after leaving her started to wear her down. It happened with Klimova & Ponomarenko, Grishuk & Platov, and even Tatiana Navka (I believe she left Dubova after the 95 Worlds).

  13. #173
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    Usova & Zhulin should have won the gold easily. Torvill & Dean and Gritschuk & Platov are 2 of the best 5 teams ever along with Davis & White, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko, but Usova & Zhulin are too great a team to not have an olympic gold and have only 1 world title so the judges should have given it to them just based on that. Plus they were reigning world champions, Russian #1, and it was their turn. To give it to younger Russian #2 breaks all rules of dance. Anyway Gritschuk & Platovs free dance sucked, and their Rhumba sucked even worse. They should have won bronze behind Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean. Had Rahkammo & Kokko not fallen in the FD they would have deserved the bronze over G&P.

    Interesting of the 4 honest judges- 2 of them had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, 1 had Torvill & Dean gold, Usova & Zhulin silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, and 1 had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Gritschuk & Platov silver, Torvill & Dean bronze. So of the 4 real judges 3 of 4 had U&Z 1st, 3 of 4 had G&P only 3rd, and 0 of the 4 had G&P above U&Z. That is proof that without the 5 bloc judges that the final result would have very likely been Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean, Gritschuk & Platov, and that for sure G&P would have finished below U&Z. The 5 bloc judges scored the exact same like a bloc that is cheating always does- 1st Gritschuk & Platov 2nd Usova & Zhulin, 3rd Torvill & Dean, proof that they were judging in a prearranged bloc. The 4 real judges despite showing clearly what the overall result would have been, still had 3 slightly different orders, proving that they werent bloc judging like the other 5 whose marks and results should have been discounted.

  14. #174
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    The ladies should not have awarded a gold medal. There wasnt a single skater who was gold medal caliber. Chen of 95-96, and Sato 95-96 were gold medal caliber skaters, but not here. Kerrigan never was. Baiul was so wonderful but not enough technical content yet for gold medal. Witt was wonderful and a legend but far too below modern day technical standards for gold.
    Just give 5 or 6 women a bronze and be done with it. Maybe give Yamaguchi the gold and Ito the silver despite that they didnt compete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Usova & Zhulin are too great a team to not have an olympic gold and have only 1 world title so the judges should have given it to them just based on that.
    In other words, they should have been dishonest, judging on reputation/potential/overall greatness rather than what each team put on the ice that day?

    Anyway Gritschuk & Platovs free dance sucked,
    Your personal opinion. Probably based on your personal aesthetic taste.
    Athletically, live in the arena, it was amazing.

    Interesting of the 4 honest judges-
    How do you define "honest judges" -- those who agree with you? When you've already said that you think judges should have used dishonest criteria to choose the winner?

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    B&E have two oly bronzes for horrendous mistake filled routines. 92 was a splat fest and 94 S&N wuz robbed IMO, so Lloyd's big head seems to have come from within. His skating was certainly nothing to write home about,
    In 1994 Lloyd thought he should have won the Gold because the two other teams should have never been allowed to return to amateur competition

    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    The ladies should not have awarded a gold medal. There wasnt a single skater who was gold medal caliber. Chen of 95-96, and Sato 95-96 were gold medal caliber skaters, but not here. Kerrigan never was. Baiul was so wonderful but not enough technical content yet for gold medal. Witt was wonderful and a legend but far too below modern day technical standards for gold.
    Just give 5 or 6 women a bronze and be done with it. Maybe give Yamaguchi the gold and Ito the silver despite that they didnt compete.
    Haha several Olympic skating events never deserved to have an Olympic champion

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Usova & Zhulin should have won the gold easily. Torvill & Dean and Gritschuk & Platov are 2 of the best 5 teams ever along with Davis & White, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko, but Usova & Zhulin are too great a team to not have an olympic gold and have only 1 world title so the judges should have given it to them just based on that. Plus they were reigning world champions, Russian #1, and it was their turn. To give it to younger Russian #2 breaks all rules of dance. Anyway Gritschuk & Platovs free dance sucked, and their Rhumba sucked even worse. They should have won bronze behind Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean. Had Rahkammo & Kokko not fallen in the FD they would have deserved the bronze over G&P.

    Interesting of the 4 honest judges- 2 of them had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, 1 had Torvill & Dean gold, Usova & Zhulin silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, and 1 had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Gritschuk & Platov silver, Torvill & Dean bronze. So of the 4 real judges 3 of 4 had U&Z 1st, 3 of 4 had G&P only 3rd, and 0 of the 4 had G&P above U&Z. That is proof that without the 5 bloc judges that the final result would have very likely been Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean, Gritschuk & Platov, and that for sure G&P would have finished below U&Z. The 5 bloc judges scored the exact same like a bloc that is cheating always does- 1st Gritschuk & Platov 2nd Usova & Zhulin, 3rd Torvill & Dean, proof that they were judging in a prearranged bloc. The 4 real judges despite showing clearly what the overall result would have been, still had 3 slightly different orders, proving that they werent bloc judging like the other 5 whose marks and results should have been discounted.
    Huh?! None of this makes any sense. Plus, the Soviet "block" (apart from Russia) put U&Z first. The only judge who put T&D first was British - hardly objective. Are you saying the judges from Canada, Germany, France, Czech Republic were less honest than judges from Belarus, Finland, Bulgaria and Ukraine?

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Considering that t&d were treated like god's gift to the sport during their early 80s hay day, complete with historic all perfect marks at the olys, I'd say it isn't hard to imagine how one could get a little big headed.

    B&E have two oly bronzes for horrendous mistake filled routines. 92 was a splat fest and 94 S&N wuz robbed IMO, so Lloyd's big head seems to have come from within. His skating was certainly nothing to write home about,
    I would have given S&N the bronze in 94 too, but lets also be real here. B&E did skate excellent in 1994, and would have some other Olympics, 1998 for instance, with the same skates. The 1994 pairs event was simply insane with such a deep field and almost everyone delivering their best those two nights. Referring to 1994 as a horrendous mistake filled routine is simply wrong. 92 yes.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    The ladies should not have awarded a gold medal.
    One can easily make a good case for that. Going from a "gestalt" perspective (and not the perspective of any specific judging system), I think Chen Lu probably should have won overall, because Yuka messed up too badly in the SP. However, under 6.0, I would have ranked the LPs like this:

    1. Yuka
    2. Chen
    3. - 4. Baiul/Kerrigan (either order)

    If you place Kerrigan 4th in the LP, then Yuka would end up with the gold, and Nancy would be off the podium. But if you place Kerrigan 3rd, then she would win the gold. Anyway, while I do think she deserved a medal, I don't think she deserved gold. Just because Nancy landed a triple toe-triple toe, that doesn't mean she automatically deserved to win. She had 5 pretty good jumps in a front-loaded program, and no flip. But what else??? Oh, yeah--a nice dress.

    As for pairs, I enjoyed M&D much more than G&G, who were rather clinical IMO.

    As for dance, I don't know who "should" have won, but it's a shame U&Z didn't have a better LP. I think they were probably the best dancers overall at that point, especially since T&D weren't quite as athletic as they had been previously.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-12-2014 at 12:16 AM.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    One can easily make a good case for that. Going from a "gestalt" perspective (and not the perspective of any specific judging system), I think Chen Lu probably should have won overall, because Yuka messed up too badly in the SP. However, under 6.0, I would have ranked the LPs like this:

    1. Yuka
    2. Chen
    3. - 4. Baiul/Kerrigan (either order)

    If you place Kerrigan 4th in the LP, then Yuka would end up with the gold, and Nancy would be off the podium. But if you place Kerrigan 3rd, then she would win the gold. Anyway, while I do think she deserved a medal, I don't think she deserved gold. Just because Nancy landed a triple toe-triple toe, that doesn't mean she automatically deserved to win. She had 5 pretty good jumps in a front-loaded program, and no flip. But what else??? Oh, yeah--a nice dress.

    As for pairs, I enjoyed M&D much more than G&G, who were rather clinical IMO.

    As for dance, I don't know who "should" have won, but it's a shame U&Z didn't have a better LP. I think they were probably the best dancers overall at that point, especially since T&D weren't quite as athletic as they had been previously.

    My honest program placings are Sato, Chen, Kerrigan in that order in the LP too while agreeing with the SP results pretty much exactly. However since that would give Kerrigan the gold which I dont think she deserved, even if the program placings I think that were right lead to her getting that, I instead place Chen 1st in the long over Sato, to get Chen the gold instead. I also place Sato above Witt in the short or Baiul below Bonaly in the short to make sure Sato still gets the bronze despite my having to dump her from 1st to 2nd in the LP, which I think she deserved overall with that LP even with her flubbed short program, given that Baiul had serious mistakes in both programs (even if her short was stunning otherwise and probably deserving of 2nd place).

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