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  1. #841

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    I really loved Tessa and Scott's FD. But then I really like it when ice dance teams go with a more elegant, understated dance because it deviates from the ballroom or the Tarasova school of drama. However, I really do think V/M suffered from execution problems of that FD all season. It was more apparent when compared to their great performances of their SD. In Sochi, I felt like they could have performed that FD better technically and they were trying hard to make it work emotionally. I sort of think thy sold it better in previous competitions.
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  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Baiul wasn't yet. And neither was Lipinski IMO. But they could be, with time. Their pre-mature crowning (rightly or wrongly) stopped them from further developing in a competitive setting which was a shame. I could only imagine what could have become of Baiul in 1998 and Lipinski in 2002 (if her hips were still in tact).

    Back to 1994, I really think Sato was probably the closest to a complete package. She had all the ladies triples, the spins, the footwork, the elegance, the musicality, and a program that showed off her speed and flow.

    Kerrigan's skating looked very dated, despite the pretty dress. She was even more Lysacek than Lysacek (ordinary).

    Chen had the difficulty but not yet the refinement.
    I disagree Lipinski wasnt an OGM caliber skater. I dont think she is the best ever or anything, but her performances would have won the Olympics in 92, 94, 2002, 2006, and maybe even silver (although no chance in hell of gold) in 2010. She beat Michelle Kwan 4 out of 6 times at the height of their rivalry and won Olympics, worlds, U.S Nationals and 2 grand prix finals in a short span. She was a 5.9 technical skater and atleast a 5.8 artistic one. If she isnt an OGM skater, than atleast over half the skaters who won the OGM arent too.

    I also dont think Lipinski would have developed post 98 and winning stopped that. Her hips were already pretty much shot by that point. It was then or never for her. She may have won silver at the 99 worlds with a watered down program, and then she would have plunged in the standings even in the U.S thereafter had she remained. By 2000 she would have struggled to even do programs with the 5 basic triples solos anymore.

    Baiul probably wouldnt have ever had the technical content to compete with Kwan or Lipinski, unless she got held up for being an Olympic Champion. 1995 she would have had a shot at the world title, but not sure after that.

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by frillit View Post
    I disagree Lipinski wasnt an OGM caliber skater. I dont think she is the best ever or anything, but her performances would have won the Olympics in 92, 94, 2002, 2006, and maybe even silver (although no chance in hell of gold) in 2010. She beat Michelle Kwan 4 out of 6 times at the height of their rivalry and won Olympics, worlds, U.S Nationals and 2 grand prix finals in a short span. She was a 5.9 technical skater and atleast a 5.8 artistic one. If she isnt an OGM skater, than atleast over half the skaters who won the OGM arent too.

    I also dont think Lipinski would have developed post 98 and winning stopped that. Her hips were already pretty much shot by that point. It was then or never for her. She may have won silver at the 99 worlds with a watered down program, and then she would have plunged in the standings even in the U.S thereafter had she remained. By 2000 she would have struggled to even do programs with the 5 basic triples solos anymore.

    Baiul probably wouldnt have ever had the technical content to compete with Kwan or Lipinski, unless she got held up for being an Olympic Champion. 1995 she would have had a shot at the world title, but not sure after that.
    Where's the "LIKE" option on this site? MK was being crowned before the lighting of the torch at Nagana! I was just going to bed at 5:30 am or so when I heard the result on the radio! I didn't particularly care for Tara's skating, but anyone that took Michelle down a peg was alright with me; including Irina Slutskaya and Sarah Hughes (twice)!

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by frillit View Post
    I disagree Lipinski wasnt an OGM caliber skater. I dont think she is the best ever or anything, but her performances would have won the Olympics in 92, 94, 2002, 2006, and maybe even silver (although no chance in hell of gold) in 2010. She beat Michelle Kwan 4 out of 6 times at the height of their rivalry and won Olympics, worlds, U.S Nationals and 2 grand prix finals in a short span. She was a 5.9 technical skater and atleast a 5.8 artistic one. If she isnt an OGM skater, than atleast over half the skaters who won the OGM arent too.
    What I said wasn't about whether they deserved to win the Olympics or not, it's about what they have proceeded to become AFTER they became OGMs. They both had so much to improve on when they won but already became so beautiful about 2 years later. They both could have blossomed into amazing competitive skaters if they hadn't won the big one and moved on immediately to cash in. But you were right, who knew how Lipinski would have held up.

  5. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Baiul wasn't yet. And neither was Lipinski IMO. But they could be, with time. Their pre-mature crowning (rightly or wrongly) stopped them from further developing in a competitive setting which was a shame.
    True--same for Hughes.

    Back to 1994, I really think Sato was probably the closest to a complete package. She had all the ladies triples, the spins, the footwork, the elegance, the musicality, and a program that showed off her speed and flow.
    Agreed. Yet she seems to get so little respect from many fans.

    Kerrigan's skating looked very dated, despite the pretty dress.
    Nancy needed the right choreography and program, and that just wasn't it. Let's say you are about to give a woman who is average-looking a makeover. With the right clothes (including colors that match her hair and skin tone), hairstyle, and makeup, you could turn her into someone who might even be considered pretty. So, if the Scotvolds had given Nancy a suitable program with the right choreography, she could have come across as fairly artistic, I think. But I suspect they had no clue--and still don't--how bad that program was.

    What was its official title? "Jazzercise on Ice"???

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Scott and Tessa loved the program and felt it was very close to their hearts (hence the heart-touching gesture at the end). It was the 'story of our life/career' program that skaters so often do.
    Then why were they complaining about it afterward?

    This happens so often with skaters who have programs that just don't work really well. They don't know at all, or don't know until it is too late. Fans doubted the program early in the season, but who would go up to a skater and say 'your program sucks', and if anyone did, would the skater believe it, even, or think the viewpoint important?
    Good question. As you've said, skaters/coaches often seem blind to glaring shortcomings in programs (in the same way that musicians/record companies often seem blind to songs that flop because they're simply mediocre, while fans are saying, "What were they thinking picking that song as a (first) single?"). I think they should find a way to solicit constructive outside feedback. With the Internet, that couldn't be too difficult these days.

    I do find it a bit odd that neither team thought it might be wise to find another coach/choreographer though, to be more competitive against the other.
    Very true.
    Last edited by neptune; 05-29-2014 at 09:01 AM.

  7. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    MK was being crowned before the lighting of the torch at Nagana!
    Don't forget SLC either.

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Don't forget SLC either.
    They may have tried at SLC, but Irina was the real favorite by then! She had beaten Michelle again and again including 2001 Masters, GWG's, and GP final with just 3 triples landed! All of Michelle's buds were backstage with varying kinds of looks and reactions to that one! It was hilarious considering the gifts she's received over the years! MK was actually getting embarrassed; at the Masters finally firing Frank Carroll! She singled or doubled every jump! Her confidence had to shaken!
    Last edited by Fiero425; 05-29-2014 at 09:18 AM.

  9. #849

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Then why were they complaining about it afterward?
    I never heard them complain about the program. Even now, they may be too close to it to realize that it was not one of their best, one of their signatures.

    In general, they didn't complain after the Olympics and have been very gracious. Scott made one comment that was slightly negative in suggesting that Marina perhaps gave more time/attention to D&W than them. But this could have been prompted by an interviewer who made him defensive about winning the silver. And IIRC Marina didn't attend Nats with Tessa and Scott, but did attend Nats with D/W. Their was definitely one competition she didn't attend with V/M so she could be with D/W and I think it was Nats. In which case, it is understandable that V/M might have thought Marina was giving D/W more attention.

    My impression of V/M last season has been strongly influenced by the documentary on their preparation. Mostly, they just seemed really confused about their scores. Interviews on Canadian TV after competitions gave a similar impression. They wanted to improve to compete with D&W, but didn't know how to achieve that improvement. IMO their confusion is understandable.

    If their skill levels had decreased, as some here suggest - not a viewpoint I agree with - then maybe someone should have pointed that out and use that as a basis for ways to improve and gain more points. But would Marina do that?

  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Baiul wasn't yet. And neither was Lipinski IMO. But they could be, with time. Their pre-mature crowning (rightly or wrongly) stopped them from further developing in a competitive setting which was a shame. I could only imagine what could have become of Baiul in 1998 and Lipinski in 2002 (if her hips were still in tact).
    That's a big if. I think if Baiul & Lipinsky hadn't won when they did, they never would have. Lipinski's hip was not going to last another 4 years, even with reduced training and show skating, and Baiul was going to grow into a tall, muscular woman who would likely have fought a losing battle to keep her jumps.

  11. #851
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    Marina had two teams at Us nationals. If she would have chosen the nationals with one team, that would have been more a slap in the face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarotx View Post
    Marina had two teams at Us nationals. If she would have chosen the nationals with one team, that would have been more a slap in the face.
    I thought Marina had MORE than two teams at US Nationals; she had two teams contending for the Olympics which is why I thought she was there. Didn't/doesn't she have some junior teams there as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    That's a big if. I think if Baiul & Lipinsky hadn't won when they did, they never would have. Lipinski's hip was not going to last another 4 years, even with reduced training and show skating, and Baiul was going to grow into a tall, muscular woman who would likely have fought a losing battle to keep her jumps.
    All that happened to their bodies post Olympics, make it clear they each won the only Olympics they ever could have. That is without even considering all that happened to Baiul's mind post Olympics.

    Baiul also would have had to add more jumps, not merely keep her jumps, to have a chance at the 98 OGM. 5 triples, without even a triple-double combination and 1 triple lutz, was never going to win OGM in 98. That is also what Baiul did only on a really good/perfect day, and more than she managed at the 94 Olympics in winning gold. Lipinski atleast had the technical arsenal to potentially water down slightly and still possibly have an OGM chance.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Any show programs or particular performances you would recommend? Thanks.
    One of my guilty pleasures is liking her 1994 LP, as skated at the Olympics, even though imho it isn't a masterpiece and doesn't come close to her Dying Swan. The pro performances I love most which are on YouTube:

    Paquita
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pz6Zkbkhvs

    Sadeness
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzEc1w66LIo

    Meditation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6_0VlvmVh8

    Flower Program
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtWQuF6B6cA

    All that Jazz
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VRrW1Q_0nk

    Safe from Harm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFB0xs8wMJU

  15. #855

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadya View Post
    One of my guilty pleasures is liking her 1994 LP, as skated at the Olympics, even though imho it isn't a masterpiece and doesn't come close to her Dying Swan. The pro performances I love most which are on YouTube:

    Paquita
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pz6Zkbkhvs

    Sadeness
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzEc1w66LIo

    Meditation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6_0VlvmVh8

    Flower Program
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtWQuF6B6cA

    All that Jazz
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VRrW1Q_0nk

    Safe from Harm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFB0xs8wMJU
    Thanks so much for the links! I have never seen or heard of the Flower program before; it is stunning and gorgeous! Damn. And to see such unbridled power and speed paired with haunting and delicate choreography is so, so, so rare! How I wish we could have seen Oksana skate in ISU events from 94-98....I think we missed out on a few masterpiece programs for the ages....

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    You're welcome.

    Some have suggested that Paquita or Meditation was perhaps meant to be her competitive program for the 1994-1995 season.

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    I think Baiul could have won the 98 Olympics. Her huge jumps would have stood out to the judges in comparision to Kwan's medium sized jumps and Tara's baby ones. Tara especialy would have really suffered. Kwan's jumps werent huge enough to make the judges really hammer her for her tiny jumps but Oksana's monster jumps would have made them. Oksana had stunning artistry already in 94 and with continued improvement and maturity probably would have remained the top artist, even when Kwan became an exceptional artist in 96-98. Her artistry, just like her huge jumps, would have crushed Tara's by comparision. Her spins are also superior to both Michelle and Tara. Her spirals are much better than Tara, and Oksana always had excellent footwork, basic skating, and her speed is greater than Michelle although Tara also had very good speed. The only thing Tara would have over Oksana been much harder jumps but that could not overcome much smaller and lower quality jumps, weaker spins, weaker non jump elements, and much weaker artistry and choreography to beat Oksana, especialy when Oksana as the reigning Olympic Champion and a multi world champion would have a huge reputation edge over Tara.

    Oksana is really underrated and hated by many skating fans these days. Some of you cant get over her beating overrated and poor sport Nancy I guess. Like G&P she never stopped paying with fans for her Lillehammer win, but in her case it was by beating one of the most overrated skaters in history too making it worse.

  18. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolosozharGOAT View Post
    I think Baiul could have won the 98 Olympics. Her huge jumps would have stood out to the judges in comparision to Kwan's medium sized jumps and Tara's baby ones. Tara especialy would have really suffered. Kwan's jumps werent huge enough to make the judges really hammer her for her tiny jumps but Oksana's monster jumps would have made them. Oksana had stunning artistry already in 94 and with continued improvement and maturity probably would have remained the top artist, even when Kwan became an exceptional artist in 96-98. Her artistry, just like her huge jumps, would have crushed Tara's by comparision. Her spins are also superior to both Michelle and Tara. Her spirals are much better than Tara, and Oksana always had excellent footwork, basic skating, and her speed is greater than Michelle although Tara also had very good speed. The only thing Tara would have over Oksana been much harder jumps but that could not overcome much smaller and lower quality jumps, weaker spins, weaker non jump elements, and much weaker artistry and choreography to beat Oksana, especialy when Oksana as the reigning Olympic Champion and a multi world champion would have a huge reputation edge over Tara.

    Oksana is really underrated and hated by many skating fans these days. Some of you cant get over her beating overrated and poor sport Nancy I guess. Like G&P she never stopped paying with fans for her Lillehammer win, but in her case it was by beating one of the most overrated skaters in history too making it worse.
    Unfortunately Oksana killed her own reputation if you remember and go back to news reports! She was lazy, didn't really commit to her craft at times, and before turning 18 was already somewhat of an alcoholic! I can definitely remember her running her car into a tree once or twice years ago! Her jumps are a bit exaggerated as well! IIRC, her 3 lutz was 2-footed just about every time! I can remember her doing only a couple I liked; '98-'99 Ice Wars in a SP of Tacotta classic piece and 2000 Goodwill Games LP doing her best "Swan Lake" that actually shocked Nancy Kerrigan who's mouth went agape! That last event had the best triple lutz of her career as far as I'm concerned and clicked so well, a 2 foot landing was eliminated!
    Last edited by Fiero425; 06-15-2014 at 08:11 PM.

  19. #859

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    Oksana's max 5 triples (with one Lutz) would not have been competitive with Kwan and Lipinski in their young primes who were able to do 7 triples (Tara a 3/3 and a 3/.5/3) by 1998. Not to mention Kwan and Lipinski were capable of doing spins with a variety of positions and change-of-foot. I don't know where the idea that Oksana had better spirals than Tara came from either. Tara was able to do a serpentine sequence with a good free leg (first one was held but still higher than Oksana's free leg), speed, and ice coverage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolosozharGOAT View Post

    Oksana is really underrated and hated by many skating fans these days. Some of you cant get over her beating overrated and poor sport Nancy I guess.
    I think most are annoyed that Oksana won with a flawed short program and only three really clean triples in that terrible long program. It has little to do with who she beat but that she won with horrible technical content. But as usual, those arguing Oksana's win in 94 have to resort to character bashing of her rival because they can't point out anything Oksana as a decent argument for her win.
    And her jumps would have stood out next to Kwan and Lipinski's all right. They would have been finally dinged for all the two-footing that accompanied them. Oksana was smart to get out when she did. She could get away with the two-footing for about the 13 months her amateur career lasted. Had she stayed in another 4 years, the judges would have finally put a stop to awarding her flawed jump landings.

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