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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    Well Roca & Sur talked about how it was their dream to be at the Olympics.
    Maybe they just got too discouraged.

    Didnt R&S come only 14th at the 96 worlds to 7th for P&S though. This has to go beyond USFSA favortism and indicates international judges just viewed P&S as way better by then. The U.S judges could sense it.
    gkelly discusses some possibilities above.

    Wynne & Witherby may have done poorly at the 93 worlds (15th place) but that is exactly where P&S came in Lillehammer so still doesnt indicate P&S were at that point this vastly superior team.
    Oh, I wasn't implying that P&S were superior--just that W&W's low placement at '93 Worlds probably hurt them in the USFSA's eyes.

  2. #562
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    I just watched Roca & Sur's second OD from '96 on YT, and it was very impressive. Dick Button liked it a lot, saying there was a lot of difficulty and calling it "sensational," even while admitting that they could still improve the quality of the performance. (In contrast, he was positive about Punsalan & Swallow's OD but not exactly gushy. He did mention that they had good speed, but I don't think he was as impressed with theirs.) It would be interesting to compare their performance with some of the others. I remember a couple of years ago some knowledgeable posters on here said that they thought R&S and W&W should have finished about 6th and 7th (respectively) at '93 Worlds, so it's hard not to be skeptical when it comes to their reception by the international judges. Interestingly enough, I read that apparently R&S wanted to turn pro in '94, but couldn't get any offers, so they were really anxious to win Nationals in '95 in order to get on TV and then be able to go on tour.

    I can't find a video of their original original dance from '96. Nor can I find any videos of W&W from 1994 U.S. Nationals.

    I guess what it all boils down to is that from a fan perspective (or at least mine), placements are overrated. Better to watch a performance that was interesting and moving but didn't win any kind of medal rather than one that got first but doesn't do anything for you at all.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-26-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  3. #563
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    I guess what it all boils down to is that from a fan perspective (or at least mine), placements are overrated. Better to watch a performance that was interesting and moving but didn't win any kind of medal rather than one that got first but doesn't do anything for you at all. I guess what it all boils down to is that from a fan perspective (or at least mine), placements are overrated. Better to watch a performance that was interesting and moving but didn't win any kind of medal rather than one that got first but doesn't do anything for you at all.
    OF course, form the individual perspective, it’s always better to watch programme, that moves us in some way than the programme, that got the best marks, but as you said, doesn’t do anything to you. But whether we like or not, places count for the majority of viewers. If we remember the competition from the past, at least vaguely, we will return to watch some programmes, that we think that we liked. But people, who don’t remember the event at all, probably will only bother to watch some videos of top three competitors. In this way, some beautiful programmes unfortunately get forgotten.

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    OF course, form the individual perspective, it’s always better to watch programme, that moves us in some way than the programme, that got the best marks, but as you said, doesn’t do anything to you. But whether we like or not, places count for the majority of viewers. If we remember the competition from the past, at least vaguely, we will return to watch some programmes, that we think that we liked. But people, who don’t remember the event at all, probably will only bother to watch some videos of top three competitors. In this way, some beautiful programmes unfortunately get forgotten.
    All that is quite logical from a psychological point of view. People who are fond of a certain skater or at least a certain performance will remember it and maybe rewatch it regardless of the ranking.
    When people don't remember the event, that is for a certain reason - they were not interested or not fond enough to remember anyone.
    Imo, it comes down to the usual 'we remember what we like'. Liking and fandom helps those who maybe were not too lucky in terms of medals to stay in people's minds.
    Having earned medals may help some skaters to be remembered as winners, but obviously not to get more liked.

  5. #565
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    I can only speculate why Roca and Sur didn't continue competing in the late 90s. There were still plenty of pro opportunities where they could make big money. They were in their 30s and instead of spending huge amounts on coaching, traveling, and competition, etc., they could make money and leave it in their pockets. The other choice was to remain amateur and languish in 14th place (even top 10 seemed to be out of their leagues) indefinitely. This doesn't speak of what I think their skating is like - they were awesome IMO. Their Neil Diamond program "If You Go Away" was a masterpiece IMO and deserved the win in the World Pros over Usova and Zhulin. The judges in the amateur world simply weren't going with them, and the USFSA was probably firmly focused on singles winning medals and probably sacrificed ice dancing. The likes of Roca and Sur and Punsalan and Swallow deserved way better rankings, but they never had much political support. Without it, it was impossible to move up at least soon enough for them to medal. They might have needed to wait at least another 5-10 years and being in their 30s the wait just wasn't worth it. This was before Belbin and Agosto and Davis and White, US ice dancers were basically in the vortex.

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I think that although such opinions lke yours may appear, according to majority of viewers, their comeback didn't make any harm to their reputation. And probably they would never change their career and place in history for G&P's golds. But it is a subject for another discussion, so I don't want to dwell on this too much.
    I do think that T&D mentioned somewhere in the past that they would never have come back in 1994 had they known how difficult the whole experience was going to be.

    Honestly, anything less than gold for legends is disappointing.

  7. #567
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    Witt is a legend and I dont think she would have said anything less than gold was dissapointing. In fact she would have been over the moon with a bronze. It was stupid for T&D and their fans to think they would cakewalk to the gold just like 84. They were 35 and 36, not 22 and 25 like G&G who could reasonably have expected that were.

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    They probably thought their ages wouldn't have mattered so much in Ice Dance if they came up with excellent choreography and performed it well. However, I think T/D maybe forgot how technically demanding Olympic-level ice dance became and that the judges for the compulsories and the technical merit marks wouldn't be as laid back as World Pro judges who would probably give T/D the win for just showing up.

    It was much easier for Witt to assess her chances of winning by observing the number and kinds of triples being attempted vs. the ones she was capable of doing in a more or less consistent basis. Anyway, she wanted an Olympic experience of pure enjoyment and she got it. T/D wanted to be like G/G and win the whole thing. Plus, Witt already had two OGMs, and T/D (being the driven competitors that they were) probably wanted a second one to cement their status as the greatest ice dance team of all time.

    Anyway, I don't mind that T/D tried because we got one hell of a Rhumba OD and an entertaining FD out of it. Not to mention drama off the ice.
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  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    They probably thought their ages wouldn't have mattered so much in Ice Dance if they came up with excellent choreography and performed it well. However, I think T/D maybe forgot how technically demanding Olympic-level ice dance became and that the judges for the compulsories and the technical merit marks wouldn't be as laid back as World Pro judges who would probably give T/D the win for just showing up.
    This. One of the few times I agreed with Scott Hamilton was when he said in what seemed part frustration/part awe during some pro event that T&D sneezed and got 10.0s from judges.

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    Witt is a legend and I dont think she would have said anything less than gold was dissapointing. In fact she would have been over the moon with a bronze. It was stupid for T&D and their fans to think they would cakewalk to the gold just like 84. They were 35 and 36, not 22 and 25 like G&G who could reasonably have expected that were.
    Yes, but Witt's motivation was to have fun, unlike her 2 previous Olympic experiences. I don't think she expected to medal.

    T&D, however, thought they improved immensely as skaters and performers after having so much professional success. The stuff they did in the pro circuit were amazing. They and their fans thought that if they kept the same momentum, they were still the best in the world. Unfortunately, it didn't play out that way. This is an instance where their expectations were excessive and needed to be brought down to earth. While I do think they made a good case for OGM and their FD was fantastic, they weren't doing things like Missing or the Mirror which was an artistic disappointment as well.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post

    It was much easier for Witt to assess her chances of winning by observing the number and kinds of triples being attempted vs. the ones she was capable of doing in a more or less consistent basis. Anyway, she wanted an Olympic experience of pure enjoyment and she got it.
    Kind of. She was really miffed about all the attention Harding/Kerrigan got and expressed it to the press all throughout Lillehammer. Poor Kat wasn't used to not being the center of attention and I think her ego got bruised.

  12. #572

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    Didn't Christopher Dean say that they were sort of asked by the ISU to reinstate in order to bring ice dance back to its basics? It was obvious with all the rule changes in Ice Dance that the ISU wanted Ice Dance to move away from the abstract dances that the Duschenays (and then later Usova/Zhulin and Klimova/Ponomarenko) made popular but made judging very difficult. That could explain the Fred/Ginger routine T/D did. I remember in one interview, Chris Dean was again being bitter about the results was saying something like "they asked us to come back because they wanted Ice Dance to go back to the classic ballroom style and we did that and still lost." I mean isn't Rock n Roll a valid ballroom style? I mean sure Grishuk/Platov didn't really dance as much as skated (with great speed and difficulty), but it was a far cry from a Duschenays routine.

    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Kind of. She was really miffed about all the attention Harding/Kerrigan got and expressed it to the press all throughout Lillehammer. Poor Kat wasn't used to not being the center of attention and I think her ego got bruised.
    Oh poor Kat. Too bad she couldn't share practice or warm-up ice with Harding. She could have skated to Harding's music and "improved" upon it. She should have done that with Baiul and Kerrigan too just to mess with them. I would have loves to see what would have happened had Kat pulled her infamous intimidation practices on Harding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Yes, but Witt's motivation was to have fun, unlike her 2 previous Olympic experiences. I don't think she expected to medal.
    I always felt that when Witt first decided to make a comeback in '94, she did have a medal in mind (and maybe even gold).

    But she ended up 2nd at German Nationals (to Szewczenko) which I'm sure was a surprise to her. She looked majorly ticked off when she got 8th at Europeans. My guess was that she re-evaluated her expectations going into the Olympics and made peace with skating for the enjoyment of it.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  14. #574
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    I do think that T&D mentioned somewhere in the past that they would never have come back in 1994 had they known how difficult the whole experience was going to be.
    But they also said that despite of everything they don’t regret.

    Didn't Christopher Dean say that they were sort of asked by the ISU to reinstate in order to bring ice dance back to its basics? It was obvious with all the rule changes in Ice Dance that the ISU wanted Ice Dance to move away from the abstract dances that the Duschenays (and then later Usova/Zhulin and Klimova/Ponomarenko) made popular but made judging very difficult. That could explain the Fred/Ginger routine T/D did. I remember in one interview, Chris Dean was again being bitter about the results was saying something like "they asked us to come back because they wanted Ice Dance to go back to the classic ballroom style and we did that and still lost." I mean isn't Rock n Roll a valid ballroom style? I mean sure Grishuk/Platov didn't really dance as much as skated (with great speed and difficulty), but it was a far cry from a Duschenays routine.
    In 1992 T/D were invited to Davos for the the 100th anniversary of International Skating Union. During this event a question of bringing back the professionals to sport came up. During this event, people from ISU already said that ice dance should come back to its roots, which was a ballroom dance. And dancing to classical music weren't to be allowed.
    I have read somewhere, that T/D weren’t happy about it. But anyway they decided to stick to rules as well as possible. In 1980s they sometimes stretched the rules limits, but now they decided not give any excuse for doubts and discussion. They said they wanted to show "two people simply dancing with each other in ways that didn't seem pretentious". The result of this was Face the Music and Dance routine, especially the Europeans version.

    Once I read an interview with Platov, where he said that had T&D returned with Bolero (with some slight changes) they would have won. He also added that he was really afraid of that. I must admit I never understood that. Firstly, how could they return with Bolero, if it were going be a ballroom dance? Secondly, there would have been resentment towards them from non-fans that they want to exploit their best achievement in order to win another gold. It might have been considered unfair.
    Last edited by coraczek; 05-01-2014 at 08:28 AM.

  15. #575
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    Oh poor Kat. Too bad she couldn't share practice or warm-up ice with Harding. She could have skated to Harding's music and "improved" upon it. She should have done that with Baiul and Kerrigan too just to mess with them. I would have loves to see what would have happened had Kat pulled her infamous intimidation practices on Harding.
    I love your ideas

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    I dream of a pro competition with Surya, Sasha, Katarina, Tonya and Shizuka. The real winner would be decided in the warmup.

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Once I read an interview with Platov, where he said that had T&D returned with Bolero (with some slight changes) they would have won. He also added that he was really afraid of that. I must admit I never understood that. Firstly, how could they return with Bolero, if it were going be a ballroom dance? Secondly, there would have been resentment towards them from non-fans that they want to exploit their best achievement in order to win another gold. It might have been considered unfair.
    I remember reading the same interview, but I actually think this (stupid ) idea came from Tarasova and Platov was just paraphrasing. I agree with you - I don't get it!

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    Iirc Witt said in her book that she always had a bad habit of slacking off too much in the off season and wasted too much time during the season playing catch up. This was magnified during her comeback and euros was a huge wake up call as it hit her that she started way too late and didn't take it seriously enough. It was mere weeks till the olys and she realized she needed 6 months to get ready. It was over before it even began.

  19. #579
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    T&D were never going to be the champions of bringing back ballroom dancing! They were the ones who broke the ballroom, 4-piece muzak format of FDs! They were the ones to steer ice dancing into abstract, interpretative dance which were later copied by D&D, K&P, U&Z.

    I always wondered why the ISU thought it was cool to have ballroom dancing back. Most of the programs in the 70s were boring and frankly awful. Moiseeva and Minekov changed that, T&D improved upon that... fascinating programs throughout the 80s and 90s.

    Sure T&D's FD was ballroom dancing but everyone wants at least Bolero 2.0 from them. They were told that maybe even so they would lose - deliberate misinformation. They could have gone with their gut instinct as they did in the 80s instead of fulfilling the rules to win OGM.

  20. #580

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    I always wondered why the ISU thought it was cool to have ballroom dancing back. Most of the programs in the 70s were boring and frankly awful. Moiseeva and Minekov changed that, T&D improved upon that... fascinating programs throughout the 80s and 90s.
    My understanding is that they were getting pressure from the IOC to make ice dance more sport-like, less subjective, because the impression with the more artistic approach was that judges were just choosing whoever's program they liked best, or whoever's turn it was.

    I wish that back in 1992-93, rather than insisting on specific types of music and dance themes, instead they had instituted more codification of the technical content: either the required elements and fall deductions introduced in 1998-99, or a proto-version of the IJS, and allowed the teams to maintain thematic freedom in the free dance.

    But that wasn't the direction the 1992 dance technical committee envisioned.

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