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  1. #541

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    But I don't think she managed more than 5 triples, none in combo, in the freeskate that season . . . which probably would not have been enough for a medal even without mistakes or breaks for equipment interruptions.
    Yeah, only Oksana Baiul could get away with that, and her case, she didn't even need five clean triples.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    If she'd skated her short program at the Olympics the way she did at Skate America or US Nationals, she should have been top 4 in the short (ahead of Chen with mistake on jump combo).

    But I don't think she managed more than 5 triples, none in combo, in the freeskate that season . . . which probably would not have been enough for a medal even without mistakes or breaks for equipment interruptions.
    Her best LP of the year was 4 clean triples, a 5th very two footed one, and no triple-double combination. A very Baiul like jump layout and without an ounce of Baiul's artistry or performance abilities, or reputation or stature at the time, she was toast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    She won 91 nats but lost 91 worlds to Kristi. Apparently, being nat champ is not enough, one has to actually outskate the others, so getting rid of other skaters is definitely a surer way to the top than relying on a good skate.

    Nothing will ever make what she (or her "team) did make any kind of rational sense. She was loseing all season to several skaters at events Kerrigan wasn't even at. Did they just not get around to whacking oksana, surya, etc...
    The sad thing is I could totally see Team Tonya whacking Oksana, Surya, Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, Josee Chouinard, Katarina Witt, Tanja Szewczenko, Nicole Bobek, Michelle Kwan, Elaine Zayak and even Lisa Ervin and Tonia Kwiatkowski and then giving that indignant, wide-eyed shocked look to anyone who dared to wonder if she was involved.

  4. #544

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    The sad thing is I could totally see Team Tonya whacking Oksana, Surya, Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, Josee Chouinard, Katarina Witt, Tanja Szewczenko, Nicole Bobek, Michelle Kwan, Elaine Zayak and even Lisa Ervin and Tonia Kwiatkowski and then giving that indignant, wide-eyed shocked look to anyone who dared to wonder if she was involved.
    This sounds like the premise to a 1970s European slasher movie

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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    This sounds like the premise to a 1970s European slasher movie
    The gestalt therapy group just got better

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    There were some rare occasions when dance teams from the same country finished in a different order at Worlds or Olympics than at their nationals.
    I wonder if this "go by the national-championship ranking" phenomenon explains the huge gap between the placements of Roca & Sur and Punsalan & Swallow at '96 Worlds? At '96 Nationals, the two teams split the CDs. But at Worlds, P&S got 8th and 7th while R&S got 14th and 14th. I suspect a lot more than their actual performances accounts for the judging there, unless either Roca or Sur was sick or something.

    Actually, R&S got 14th in all phases of the event. Nice and convenient, huh? Were they really that bad? If so, what happened? In '95, they had managed 10th at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    She won 91 nats but lost 91 worlds to Kristi. Apparently, being nat champ is not enough, one has to actually outskate the others
    Being national champ was never a guarantee, but it sure helped. I suspect it helped a lot more while there were still figures. Usually the national champ would get a nice cushion in that phase.

    Nothing will ever make what she (or her "team) did make any kind of rational sense. She was loseing all season to several skaters at events Kerrigan wasn't even at. Did they just not get around to whacking oksana, surya, etc...
    I guess Tonya felt that even though Nancy wasn't present, her "presence" on the international scene as U.S. #1 was somehow affecting her scores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    If she'd skated her short program at the Olympics the way she did at Skate America or US Nationals, she should have been top 4 in the short (ahead of Chen with mistake on jump combo).
    Probably Bonaly too? What did Bonaly land in the SP? Actually, why would a clean Nancy SP have been better than a clean Tonya SP, come to think of it?

    But I don't think she managed more than 5 triples, none in combo, in the freeskate that season . . . which probably would not have been enough for a medal even without mistakes or breaks for equipment interruptions.
    Well, five of Tonya's triples were worth a lot more than five of most skaters'. She also had a lot of speed, and her spins were outstanding. So, if she'd skated a clean 5-triple program with the others all skating the same way, the only skater I could see maybe placing ahead of her in the LP would be Sato. According to merit, of course. In reality, the judges would have acted far differently. I mean, they actually ranked Sato 5th-best of the night, so not a whole lot of deep thinking going on there.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-26-2014 at 04:39 AM.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by hertmirsh View Post
    Her best LP of the year was 4 clean triples, a 5th very two footed one
    How much were two-footed landings deducted for back then?

    and no triple-double combination.
    But she did have a double axel-triple toe. Then again, I think that was a sequence.

    A very Baiul like jump layout and without an ounce of Baiul's artistry or performance abilities, or reputation or stature at the time, she was toast.
    I think the biggest problem was her reputation at that point. I always found Tonya more artistic and musical than Nancy, but the latter was still in favor.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-26-2014 at 05:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I wonder if this "go by the national-championship ranking" phenomenon explains the huge gap between the placements of Roca & Sur and Punsalan & Swallow at '96 Worlds? At '96 Nationals, the two teams split the CDs. But at Worlds, P&S got 8th and 7th while R&S got 14th and 14th. I suspect a lot more than their actual performances accounts for the judging there, unless either Roca or Sur was sick or something.

    Actually, R&S got 14th in all phases of the event. Nice and convenient, huh? Were they really that bad? If so, what happened? In '95, they had managed 10th at least.
    One factor, I think, was that after losing Nationals they decided to scrap the OD they had been using earlier in the season and get a whole new one. So probably most of their practice time in February and March was devoted to the OD and their CDs and FD were not as well trained, plus the OD was new and therefore not fully trained either.

    So I'd guess what happened was they skated tight in the CDs, placed behind a few teams they'd beaten in the past, got an earlier draw for the OD and also were probably feeling disappointed and frustrated, along with still thinking through the new OD, so they couldn't pull up in that phase. By the time they got to the free dance, again not making the draw for top 10, it was too late to make a strong positive impression.

    Plus some other younger teams -- including Punsalan/Swallow -- had legitimately improved and therefore also benefited from positive momentum in the judges' eyes.

    I don't know whether there were also any health issues or anything like that. My impression is it was a combination of the dances being less well trained because of the focus on the new program, disappointment/frustration at losing ground affecting their confidence on the ice, and judges' impressions of who was on the way up or on the way down reinforcing perceptions of the actual quality of each team's performances.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    How much were two-footed landings deducted for back then?
    It never hurt Baiul when she two-footed a jump, or two, nearly everytime she competed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    How much were two-footed landings deducted for back then?
    I happen to have a copy of ISU communication 865, the short program deduction sheet as of summer 1995. I'm not sure how different it was from the immediately previous version that would have been in effect in winter 1994.

    0.3 for "Starting or landing on two feet" (0.2 for either error if only on one jump of a combo)
    0.1-0.2 for "Touch down of free foot or hand(s)"

    In a free skate, there were no deductions, only general guidelines for establishing technical marks. Jumps that were not successful -- explicitly with falls or landed "on two feet" -- were not supposed to be considered.

    However, commentators and others would often refer to "two-footing" a landing when most of the weight was on the correct foot and the free foot only touched down. So judges would give that partial credit -- according to their own sense of how successful it was -- but comparing the commentary to the rules would make it appear that there should have been no credit.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    One factor, I think, was that after losing Nationals
    I think it's also interesting that R&S won all phases of the competition in '95, but only one CD in '96. What exactly changed, I wonder? Was the USFSA thinking, "These reinstated pros are never going to get accepted by the international judges"? That's not to say that P&S hadn't improved, but by that much?

    they decided to scrap the OD they had been using earlier in the season and get a whole new one.
    Didn't know that.

    So probably most of their practice time in February and March was devoted to the OD and their CDs and FD were not as well trained, plus the OD was new and therefore not fully trained either.
    That might explain some of it.

    So I'd guess what happened was they skated tight in the CDs, placed behind a few teams they'd beaten in the past,
    It would be interesting to see all the performances and whether the marks matched the skating.

    got an earlier draw for the OD and also were probably feeling disappointed and frustrated, along with still thinking through the new OD, so they couldn't pull up in that phase.
    Well, even if they had skated the daylights out of their OD, after getting 14th in the CDs, it's unlikely that they would have been well rewarded. Of course, their OD probably was still kind of rough.

    Plus some other younger teams -- including Punsalan/Swallow -- had legitimately improved and therefore also benefited from positive momentum in the judges' eyes.
    Yes, momentum counts for a lot.

    and judges' impressions of who was on the way up or on the way down reinforcing perceptions of the actual quality of each team's performances.
    Indeed, the improved ranking of P&S at Nationals could easily have signaled to the judges that things were a-changing, which is the phenomenon that Susan, I believe, was mentioning.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-26-2014 at 05:38 AM.

  14. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    It never hurt Baiul when she two-footed a jump, or two, nearly everytime she competed.
    It's been 20 years since those Olympic Games and I still remember how Oksana "always" 2-footed jumps, but got away with it for some reason! Her best program up until the very end happened to be at 2000 Goodwill games with veteran skaters; Kerrigan, Surya, Sato, and others! It was predictable who would place and win at the time since they were trying to judge skaters as old as Dorothy Hamil and Peggy Fleming with little or no jumping up against someone like Surya who was almost as strong as she was in real competitions! Anyway, even though all were included together, it was still mini-battles in pairs; Kerrigan v Baiul, Fleming v Hamil, and the top skaters, Bonaly vs Sato! Kerrigan was average and predictable, fell at least once, but still thought she'd score better than Baiul! Oksana went out there to do The Swan and it was beautiful! She stroked around the ice and I'll be damned if she didn't "click" the best triple lutz of her career with no 2-footing of the jump! They put Kerrigan's look up on the screen and she was shocked! Oksana was skating beautifully, completed her triple toe and was on her way to finish up with a triple salchow and double axel! She doubled the Salchow and decided to try again with little speed, falling, putting Kerrigan above her in 4th place I think! Her ego wouldn't let it go; well ahead, but blew it! Anybody remember this?

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I happen to have a copy of ISU communication 865, the short program deduction sheet as of summer 1995. I'm not sure how different it was from the immediately previous version that would have been in effect in winter 1994.

    0.3 for "Starting or landing on two feet" (0.2 for either error if only on one jump of a combo)
    0.1-0.2 for "Touch down of free foot or hand(s)"
    Thanks for digging that out.

    In a free skate, there were no deductions, only general guidelines for establishing technical marks. Jumps that were not successful -- explicitly with falls or landed "on two feet" -- were not supposed to be considered.

    However, commentators and others would often refer to "two-footing" a landing when most of the weight was on the correct foot and the free foot only touched down. So judges would give that partial credit -- according to their own sense of how successful it was -- but comparing the commentary to the rules would make it appear that there should have been no credit.
    I think it's odd that nowadays falls get credit under CoP, but even minor two-footing back then was supposed to deep-six a jump. Now I can understand why many think Oksana had no business placing ahead of Nancy. Was it 2 jumps that Oksana two-footed? Anyway, I think not giving any credit at all to a two-footed jump is a little harsh (so touching a hand to the ice was considered less severe than two-footing???), and it would be interesting to know what the judges usually did in such situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I always found Tonya more artistic and musical than Nancy
    While you might think that this was never the consensus belief of those involved and important in the sport, even at the height of Tonya's powers when she was usually beating Nancy, and sometimes beating the likes of Kristi and Midori. Nancy was always the consensus more "artistic" skater of the two, and was reflected in the marks when Nancy could win world and Olympic medals with splatty 3 or 4 triple efforts, while Tonya couldnt win a major medal with anything less than a technically outstanding showing.

    As for Roca & Sur the USFSA probably got the message when they were out of the top 10 yet again at worlds in 95. Punsalen & Swallow that very season had beaten Anissina & Peizerat to win Skate America, and A&P ended up 6th at worlds that year so in hindsight the USFSA looked silly to have kept backing R&S as their #1. Then again only a year before that Roca & Sur were 3rd at Skate Canada vs a French team who was 7th and almost last, and that team beat P&S at the Olympics, yet at the 94 Nationals P&S were leading R&S even before they WD.

    I wonder why why Roca & Sur didnt stay for the 98 Olympics. They would have qualified easily despite being displaced as U.S #1 probably for good.

    I wish Wynee & Witherby had made it the Olympics in 94 instead of P&S after R&C didnt get his citizenship in time and even didnt finish Nationals , but they never seemed to be in contention with R&S and P&S at Nationals, despite beating P&S the previous year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I think it's also interesting that R&S won all phases of the competition in '95, but only one CD in '96. What exactly changed, I wonder? Was the USFSA thinking, "These reinstated pros are never going to get accepted by the international judges"? That's not to say that P&S hadn't improved, but by that much?
    IIRC, Jerod had been injured in the fall, so Liz took the time he was off ice to work on her basics.


    Indeed, the improved ranking of P&S at Nationals could easily have signaled to the judges that things were a-changing, which is the phenomenon that Susan, I believe, was mentioning.
    Yes, I think the judges' perceptions of a team's momentum does play a role -- but it has to be based on something they're actually seeing in the skating, not out of thin air. However, "buzz" and skate order and general perceptions can magnify the effect.

    And I'm not just talking about Punsalan & Swallow. Lobacheva/Averbukh also improved their rankings significantly that year. Drobiazko/Vanagas and Winkler/Lohse also started getting more attention. Fusar Poli did better with her new partner Margaglio than with her previous one. It wasn't so much that there was a conspiracy against Roca & Sur, as that some teams in the same general range of ability were staying about the same (e.g., Mrazova/Simicek) and others were moving up, so a team that skated less well at that year than in the past found themselves losing places.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I think it's odd that nowadays falls get credit under CoP, but even minor two-footing back then was supposed to deep-six a jump.
    If it was "minor" two-footing, it would be considered a touchdown, as opposed to landing on two feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    While you might think that this was never the consensus belief of those involved and important in the sport, even at the height of Tonya's powers when she was usually beating Nancy, and sometimes beating the likes of Kristi and Midori. Nancy was always the consensus more "artistic" skater of the two, and was reflected in the marks when Nancy could win world and Olympic medals with splatty 3 or 4 triple efforts, while Tonya couldnt win a major medal with anything less than a technically outstanding showing.
    I'm not surprised, and I would attribute it to two things:

    1) looks
    2) ladylike behavior (both on and off the ice)



    As for Roca & Sur the USFSA probably got the message when they were out of the top 10 yet again at worlds in 95.
    Well, they did squeak out 10th that year.

    Then again only a year before that Roca & Sur were 3rd at Skate Canada vs a French team who was 7th and almost last, and that team beat P&S at the Olympics, yet at the 94 Nationals P&S were leading R&S even before they WD.
    So how would you explain all that?

    I wonder why why Roca & Sur didnt stay for the 98 Olympics. They would have qualified easily despite being displaced as U.S #1 probably for good.
    Maybe they just didn't want to play second fiddle.

    I wish Wynee & Witherby had made it the Olympics in 94 instead of P&S after R&C didnt get his citizenship in time and even didnt finish Nationals , but they never seemed to be in contention with R&S and P&S at Nationals, despite beating P&S the previous year.
    Yeah, it seems kind of weird that W&W got dissed like that. Probably due (in part at least) to their poor showing at '93 Worlds.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-26-2014 at 06:22 AM.

  19. #559
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    Well Roca & Sur talked about how it was their dream to be at the Olympics. I dont see how possibly being only U.S #2 is a big deal. It is not like they were ever going to be medal contenders anyway, just like P&S never were.

    Didnt R&S come only 14th at the 96 worlds to 7th for P&S though. This has to go beyond USFSA favortism and indicates international judges just viewed P&S as way better by then. The U.S judges could sense it.

    Roca & Sur were better liked by the judges as pros than amateurs.

    Wynne & Witherby may have done poorly at the 93 worlds (15th place) but that is exactly where P&S came in Lillehammer so still doesnt indicate P&S were at that point this vastly superior team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    IIRC, Jerod had been injured in the fall, so Liz took the time he was off ice to work on her basics.
    OK, didn't know that.

    Yes, I think the judges' perceptions of a team's momentum does play a role -- but it has to be based on something they're actually seeing in the skating, not out of thin air.
    Well, in theory. But we all know how certain skaters who were deemed poor at figures all of a sudden saw "magical" improvements in their standings:

    Witt (never better than 8th in figures at Worlds before '84) suddenly jumps to 3rd in Sarajevo and 1st at '84 Worlds
    Chin jumps from 12th in '84 to 2nd in '85 (despite feeling that her figures hadn't really improved)
    Sumners jumps from 11th in '82 to 1st in '83
    Ito (never better than 10th--and usually well below that--in figures at Worlds before '89) jumps to 6th at '89 Worlds

    No doubt ice dancing was similar in certain respects.

    However, "buzz" and skate order and general perceptions can magnify the effect.
    Definitely.

    It wasn't so much that there was a conspiracy against Roca & Sur, as that some teams in the same general range of ability were staying about the same (e.g., Mrazova/Simicek) and others were moving up, so a team that skated less well at that year than in the past found themselves losing places.
    Yes, I think there's truth to that, but it seems to me that the reinstated U.S. pros were always having to fight like mad to earn any respect at all from the international judges.

    If it was "minor" two-footing, it would be considered a touchdown, as opposed to landing on two feet.
    Can a minor two-foot actually be a landing on two feet? Or would the second foot touch down immediately after the landing?

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