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  1. #521

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    Although I thought the above was true, I also thought that Harding and her team (or her team if you believe Tonya knew nothing of the attack before it happened) was also hoping that Kerrigan would be so injured that she wouldn't be able to compete in Lillehammer as being the best-case-scenario. What's a better way of getting full federation support than coming in as National Champion? Coming in as National Champion with the preferred skater (or at least internationally competitive one) completely out of the running so that the federation has no other choice but to support you.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    For many years, the etiquette among judges was to observe the order a country's own judges would place the skaters in.
    Did that ever end, though, before CoP?

    Bestamianova/Bukin are a prime example. As long as URS kept giving their National title to B/B over Klimova/Ponomarenko, the international judges also placed them in that order. It didn't matter that by about 1986 or 87, many observers outside the URS thought K/P were better, they rarely even copped an ordinal from B/B.
    I'm not surprised. Incidentally, at '84 Worlds, Blumberg & Seibert even won a segment over B&B, and defeated K&P soundly. But by the next year, it was all K&P. Were they decidedly better than B&S in just one year, or was it just politics?

    (This may also have been part of the thinking of Team Harding - to get past Kerrigan at Lillehammer, she needed to go in as US Champion.)
    Well, she knew she wasn't getting the marks she needed already (at least outside the U.S.), so yes, it would have made sense for her to think that she needed to be the U.S. #1. Besides, up to that point, had the #2 female skater in any country ever won the OGM?

    This question leads to a really good point - speed suddenly seemed to matter here more than it ever had before. Someone mentioned earlier that the 93-94 season seemed to be a kind of watershed for ice dance, where the traditional values of ice dance were replaced by a preference for sportier looking dance styles, including placing a greater value on speed and technical skills. I think a lot of the values we see in today's ice dance elements and scoring guidance traces directly back to twizzle-queen Grishuk and Platov.
    That makes sense. It would just be very helpful to know the suggested approximate weights (at the time) of the various elements that make up ice dance. Even though I'm not thrilled with everything about CoP, at least on many things it's very specific.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Although I thought the above was true, I also thought that Harding and her team (or her team if you believe Tonya knew nothing of the attack before it happened) was also hoping that Kerrigan would be so injured that she wouldn't be able to compete in Lillehammer as being the best-case-scenario.
    Certainly. That was the whole point of the attack, wasn't it?

    What's a better way of getting full federation support than coming in as National Champion? Coming in as National Champion with the preferred skater (or at least internationally competitive one) completely out of the running so that the federation has no other choice but to support you.
    That would definitely have been her best bet, assuming nobody got caught. Of course, Tonya could've also trained like a madwoman and let her skating do the talking, but I guess she felt that at that point she wasn't likely to get much bang for her buck.

  4. #524
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    Although I thought the above was true, I also thought that Harding and her team (or her team if you believe Tonya knew nothing of the attack before it happened) was also hoping that Kerrigan would be so injured that she wouldn't be able to compete in Lillehammer as being the best-case-scenario. What's a better way of getting full federation support than coming in as National Champion? Coming in as National Champion with the preferred skater (or at least internationally competitive one) completely out of the running so that the federation has no other choice but to support you.
    You're right. That's also possible explanation.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    For many years, the etiquette among judges was to observe the order a country's own judges would place the skaters in.
    Did that ever end, though, before CoP?
    Wouldn't matter for other judges then, that the Russians wanted G/P before U/Z?

    True. Does anyone know the exact placements in each phase of ice dance at Russian Nationals in 1994?
    I think it should also be interesting to know if G/P changed their FD after Russian nationals. As far as I know U/Z won the competition (correct me if I'm wrong). Was their FD good enough to beat G/P then? What changed after the nationals?
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-25-2014 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Did that ever end, though, before CoP?
    Yes. G&P won over U&Z

  7. #527
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    Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    For many years, the etiquette among judges was to observe the order a country's own judges would place the skaters in.
    Did that ever end, though, before CoP?
    But Russian judge wanted G/P to win, not U/Z.

  8. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    For many years, the etiquette among judges was to observe the order a country's own judges would place the skaters in.
    I think it would have been more true in ice dance than singles and pairs -- if for no other reason than obvious mistakes would have been more common and thus harder for judges to override in the other disciplines.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Did that ever end, though, before CoP?
    There were some rare occasions when dance teams from the same country finished in a different order at Worlds or Olympics than at their nationals. But not in the medal positions, that I can recall -- sometimes in a CD or OSP/OD, but not overall.

    In other disciplines, yes. I'm not thinking of an occasion for ladies at Olympics, but at Worlds I can think of several.

    Yagudin over national champion Plushenko is one Olympic example I can think of. Of course, I don't know that the fact that Yagudin never won Russian Nationals is so much a reflection of the fact that Russian judges didn't support him internationally, probably more that he just didn't skate as well at Nationals.

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    But Russian judge wanted G/P to win, not U/Z.
    I'm actually surprised by this. U&Z had seniority over them, they were already Olympic medalists of 1992, they had the better international reputation, they were world champions and they were always considered Russia's no.1 team. U&Z were a "safe" bet, whereas G&P split up at least once in 1992 and Grishuk didn't have the best reputation. Maybe the Russian Federation already realised back then that Dubova was going senile.

  10. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Wouldn't matter for other judges then, that the Russians wanted G/P before U/Z?



    I think it should also be interesting to know if G/P changed their FD after Russian nationals. As far as I know U/Z won the competition (correct me if I'm wrong). Was their FD good enough to beat G/P then? What changed after the nationals?
    G&P performed their FD at the 1993 NHK competition and the dance looked very rough and not very well prepared. It's to my understanding that they got a late start to that FD because of disagreements over the music (Platov wanted something Spanish because he didn't think he could pull off a rock'n'roll number but then later changed his mind after Grishuk convinced him to go that way). Perhaps they skated a less than great routine at Russian nationals. At Europeans though, they looked thoroughly prepared and ready to skate and their program looked much more rehearsed than it had before.

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I'm actually surprised by this. U&Z had seniority over them, they were already Olympic medalists of 1992, they had the better international reputation, they were world champions and they were always considered Russia's no.1 team. U&Z were a "safe" bet, whereas G&P split up at least once in 1992 and Grishuk didn't have the best reputation. Maybe the Russian Federation already realised back then that Dubova was going senile.
    Placing over U&Z at Europeans seemed to have tipped the scales in the favour for G&P. Placing ahead of them there kind of sort of meant that they were actually the first Russian team going into the Olympics in spite of past results.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    For many years, the etiquette among judges was to observe the order a country's own judges would place the skaters in. Bestamianova/Bukin are a prime example. As long as URS kept giving their National title to B/B over Klimova/Ponomarenko, the international judges also placed them in that order. It didn't matter that by about 1986 or 87, many observers outside the URS thought K/P were better, they rarely even copped an ordinal from B/B.
    Many facts are wrong here IMO. Klimova Ponomarenko won 85 nationals with BB second. They also won the Moscow News cup that year or the one after with BB still second. USSR judges liked KP more than BB in my opinion.
    Also KP won the original dances at 1986 Euro and Worlds & 87 worlds. KP were very close to win 86 Euros & specially Worlds & 87 Worlds IMO. In 87, it was decided in the FD, both teams had 6.0 if I'm remembering well. It's not like KP were put straight in 2nd by all the judges, as Mishkutionok Dmitriev in 1994, with no chances to win at all.

    Klimova Ponomarenko didn't skate at 87 & 88 nationals, they won in 85 & 86. Bestemianova Bukin won 87 but both team never faced each other there after 85.

    It is a myth KP were better at compulsories than BB. Their Rhumba is barely OK in my memories for example. They may have been equal with different strenghs IMO, BB were notoriously good at skating the Killian being another example. But we have not so many CD so it's hard to say. Toward the end of their career though KP got worse because they did'nt want to train them. BB had horrible OSP most of the time they were champions, Tarasova experimented a lot with them. They were maybe IMO seen as pushing the bondaries as TD before them and that's why maybe the judges gave put them in front of more complex FDs by KP, they were very good but they can quickly bore non skating fans.

    Reaching quickly the top of my head is the very known 1997 french dance season, Anissina Peizerat after losing the CDs to Moniotte Lavanchy and a fall in the OD won the competition on a 5/4 split. Then, at NHK, Euros and Worlds international judges ranked them below Moniotte Lavanchy.

    Anissina Peizerat FD
    http://youtu.be/cBXFDayBazY

    Moniotte Lavanchy FD
    http://youtu.be/iRgsI40Bu0I

    Also at 1999 Euros, Delobel Schoenfelder were ranked higher than Deniaud Jaffredo, the french nationals silver medalist.

  13. #533
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    I thought neither U&Z nor G&P took part in Russian nationals in 1994, but I could be completely wrong.

    I agree that the Europeans that year were decisive (as well as Grishuk's tenaciousness in pushing the Rock'n'Roll music). It gave G&P incredible confidence for the Olympics and already indicated to them that the judges liked their free dance. It also allowed them to place ahead of U&Z (albeit through some weird ordinals).

    Apparently, Grishuk was very ill just before the Europeans (with pneumonia) and G&P didn't really train beforehand. Grishuk could barely get out of bed and the Russian Federation wanted to send a replacement team, but she refused and said she would skate anyway. Platov later said how impressed he was with her will power and the fact that they beat both T&D and U&Z in the free dance was like a miracle, which gave them the confidence to skate the way they did in Lillehammer.
    Last edited by Xela M; 04-25-2014 at 01:15 PM.

  14. #534
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    I thought neither U&Z nor G&P took part in Russian nationals in 1994, but I could be completely wrong.
    Oh, I didn't take this into account. Maybe other people know. It's an ancient history, it's hard to remember everything

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Oh, I didn't take this into account. Maybe other people know. It's an ancient history, it's hard to remember everything
    Wiki says Krylova & Fedorov won that year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Ru...ps#Ice_Dancing

  16. #536
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    Ok, then my question from post 525 was irrelevant.

  17. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I have always wondered why Harding (or her team) did what they did. Even if she had been 2nd in US Nationals, she would have still qualified to Lillehammer. Now after your explanation this Kerrigan-Harding affair has made more sense to me at last.
    She won 91 nats but lost 91 worlds to Kristi. Apparently, being nat champ is not enough, one has to actually outskate the others, so getting rid of other skaters is definitely a surer way to the top than relying on a good skate.

    Nothing will ever make what she (or her "team) did make any kind of rational sense. She was loseing all season to several skaters at events Kerrigan wasn't even at. Did they just not get around to whacking oksana, surya, etc...

  18. #538
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    It is true as Susan M said the way of things for many years was Soviet #2 always had to wait their turn behind the #1 even when at times they were better. That is what must make 1994 so frusterating for Usova & Zhulin who were the epitome of waiting their turn and bad luck over the years, yet this long standing rule of Soviet/Russian dance was overturned only for them in the most important year of their careers, when it never had before. In their case to a team who (atleast then) werent even clearly or that much better (if at all) than them like K&P were to B&B.

  19. #539
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    As for Harding she was never a medal contender for Lillehammer, with or without Nancy. She wasnt down the ranks since she was U.S #2. She was down the ranks as she was perceived as a has been who had let her fitness, skating, and worst of all jumping fall way off in 92 and 93, and even had she returned to top level skating by 94 (which she never really did anyway) the judges and skating community had moved on.

  20. #540

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    Quote Originally Posted by hertmirsh View Post
    As for Harding she was never a medal contender for Lillehammer, with or without Nancy. She wasnt down the ranks since she was U.S #2. She was down the ranks as she was perceived as a has been who had let her fitness, skating, and worst of all jumping fall way off in 92 and 93, and even had she returned to top level skating by 94 (which she never really did anyway) the judges and skating community had moved on.
    If she'd skated her short program at the Olympics the way she did at Skate America or US Nationals, she should have been top 4 in the short (ahead of Chen with mistake on jump combo).

    But I don't think she managed more than 5 triples, none in combo, in the freeskate that season . . . which probably would not have been enough for a medal even without mistakes or breaks for equipment interruptions.

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