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  1. #481
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    I haven't heard anyone say that G&P were far and away superior in 1994! It was extremely close and either of the teams could have won. T&D won Europeans by the tiniest of margins as well, so things could have gone either way between those three teams.

    In 1998, I thought G&P were by far superior though (as long as they remained fall-free).
    Last edited by Xela M; 04-23-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  2. #482
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    Xela, I know that you love G&P's FD from 1994. But I'm curious what do you think about their Rumba?

  3. #483
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    I personally thought G&P were indeed superior to the other 2 couples in 94 but their programs that year failed to demonstrate that. Their rhumba OD was far too aggressive and was badly suited to them (well ... badly suited to her anyways). By Worlds, they scaled back the attack and had refined it somewhat but it still wasn't a great rhumba by all means and it was perhaps the weakest OD of their careers. Their FD showed off their speed, power, and youthful energy but failed to utilize their amazing running edges and incredibly strong free legs, both of which were on display very well during the compulsories. As much as I love G&P, their programs (under Linichuk) could sometimes leave a bit to be desired. If the OD that year had been the quickstep and they skated their incredible 95 quickstep OD at the 1994 Olympics, I would probably have them first depending on what T&D did (don't know why but I honestly cannot picture U&Z doing a good quickstep). And if their FD had less breaks in the choreography, their victory could've been even more decisive. But that's all a what if of course.

  4. #484

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    So why do so many fans assert that it was obvious that G&P were so superior??? Of course, it's possible that the ordinals might have been different without any possible deductions. Then again, who knows if some of the judges even took any?
    Here are the scores and ordinals from Lillehammer:
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...igure_d_ex.htm

    As you say, we don't know for sure which judges did or didn't take deductions, or what their thought processes were.

    We can go through our own thought processes, which will vary depending on what's important to each of us.

    From a fan perspective, it's easy to say that whichever program was most to our taste was the best, and then look at deductions or whatever other rules we know about to moderate our personal preferences.

    More knowledgeable and technically minded fans might look at things like technical content (including things like types of turns and steps, direction of turns, balance of work between the partners, closeness of holds, quality of edges, etc.) first.

    As a fan who was in the arena for the free dance (and also the OD, where fan opinion tends to align more closely with the official results), and who loves all these teams for different reasons, I can say Grishuk & Platov were by far the best in the FD in terms of effortless speed and ice coverage.

    Torvill & Dean were probably second fastest -- Usova & Zhulin were notably slow compared to the rest of the top teams, e.g., slower Moniotte & Lavanchy.

    Speed is an important technical quality that doesn't come across on video and so is easy for TV viewers to dismiss and difficult for judges to ignore.

    I bring it up every time this topic comes up because I think it does explain the results.

    Obviously these three teams are close overall and could change places with respect to each other depending how well they each skated each day, how well their chroegraphy fit what the judges were looking for, and what each of the specific judges on the panel felt was most important.

    I wouldn't argue that the official result that really happened was the only justifiable result. I would argue that it was a justifiable result, and therefore anyone who dismisses it as solely due to politics is ignoring an actual compelling technical argument in its favor.

    I once sat down with the videos and counted all the turns in both directions by each partner of the top three teams in that free dance and came to the conclusion that Usova/Zhulin had the best balance of technical skating content, Grishuk/Platov second, and Torvill/Dean third (at the Olympics -- at Europeans they'd had more content but less energy/projection, and I wasn't there to get an impression of speed).

    Edge quality would probably also go to U/Zh. But, as I said above, they were slow.

    I haven't looked closely at dance holds or closeness of blades or hips.

    On things like body line and extension, T/D had never been tops in those areas in their 20s and had lost some flexibility in their 30s. Other strengths aside, that was one of their biggest weaknesses in 1994 compared to more than just the other medalists.

    I expect that the judges saw all these details and more and came to their conclusions based on more thorough technical evaluations plus evaluation of how well the skating matched the musical rhythms.

    And then there were rule violations/deductions to consider.

    Personal preferences about musical expression style may also have come into play, as well as national bias and/or preferences about rewarding past body of work or future potential or whose "turn" it was to win. These preferences may have been subconscious.

    My point is, although the results could have gone different ways and everyone's entitled to an opinion on which way they would have ranked the teams if they'd been judging. I dismiss any opinions that offer only insults or only weaknesses for the least favorite team and only praise for the favorites, because they tell me more about the poster's biases than about the skating. I welcome any analysis that teaches me more details to take into consideration.

  5. #485
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    Gkelly, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Since you saw the competition live in Lillehammer, could you please say a bit about the reaction of the audience?

    You said that watching live you appreciate speed more than when you watch skating on TV. And as far as I remember from TV coverage, Lillehammer audience wasn’t so enraptured by G&P dance. I think in Europeans the audience loved them much more. Of course I may be wrong, that’s why I’m asking. What about the reaction to U&Z dance?

  6. #486

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    I don't really remember the audience reaction for the free dance. Sorry, that didn't stick in my mind.


    Since this thread is about that whole Olympics, I will add that after the men's free program, one American guy sitting near me commented to his wife that it had been a great night of skating and maybe Petrenko should have won (the freeskate).

  7. #487

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    T/D should not have come back.. The free dance was awful.. They looked slow
    And G/P free was fast & great. U/Z were slow & Boring.
    G/P best ever technically & in my opinion deserve both medals.
    V/M could have won 2 medals .. But they didn't
    D/W were better. Getting back to G/P.. Like them or not
    They are 2 time winners.. No other Ice dance team can claim that yet ,,,

  8. #488
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    I don't really remember the audience reaction for the free dance. Sorry, that didn't stick in my mind.
    OK

    T/D should not have come back.. The free dance was awful..
    I don't agree. I quite liked their FD, altough I realise they had better programmes. And I'm happy that they returned because of their Rumba, which is a masterpiece and in my opinion the best OSP/OD/SD ever.

    U/Z were slow & Boring.
    It also wasn't their best dance I admit. But I don't think it was that boring. Of course it is a matter of personal taste.

    Like them or not
    They are 2 time winners..
    Does anybody doubt it? No matter if you like them or you don't, no other team has had so many achievements (=titles). So you don't need to write obvious things.
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-23-2014 at 08:03 PM.

  9. #489
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    I thought T&D's free dance was stunning and their best ever, even over Bolero, barnum, and Mack & Mable. They were the easy winners of the gold medal that night.

  10. #490
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    I thought T&D's free dance was stunning and their best ever, even over Bolero, barnum, and Mack & Mable. They were the easy winners of the gold medal that night.
    I have already heard such opinions, though I don't agree. But as I said I liked that dance, especially that ISU wanted a ballroom dance. And in my opinion it was a real ballroom dance. It was elegant, intricate and as always they had so much unison.
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-23-2014 at 05:40 PM.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Since this thread is about that whole Olympics, I will add that after the men's free program, one American guy sitting near me commented to his wife that it had been a great night of skating and maybe Petrenko should have won (the freeskate).
    I also thought that at the time. He did double the loop, but if he had been skating in the final group, that FS would have been 1st (esp since the judges clearly were looking to give it to anybody but Elvis).

    To compare Browning & Petrenko's jumps from their Lillehammer FS:
    Browning: 3A-2T, 3S-3L, 3T, 3F, 1A (popped triple, landed on 2 feet)
    Petrenko: 3A-2T, 2L, 3Lz, 3F, 3F-2T, 3A-2T, 3T, 3S

    This was pretty obviously a "we feel bad about your SP and thanks for the extra 2 years" gift for Browning.

    I figured not skating in the final group definitely kept Petrenko's marks down (though IIRC one judge did give him a 6.0 for presentation). Still, I thought the judges were too charitable to Browning who only did 5 triples to Petrenko's 7. Yes, Browning had a 3-3 combination, but Petrenko did two 3 axels and the 3 lutz. It's not like Petrenko was only a jumper; he always had style and presentation qualities in spades.

    Still, switching Petrenko & Browning's 3-4 placements in teh FS would not have made any difference in the final standings, but 1st or 2nd in the FS would have given Petrenko the bronze over Candeloro (5th in the FS).
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-23-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I personally thought G&P were indeed superior to the other 2 couples in 94 but their programs that year failed to demonstrate that.
    I do think they were superior technically. But concerning presentation, what exactly did they have on the other top two teams? Many would say "speed." That's true, but would they have demonstrated as much speed in skating, say, U&Z's program? Besides speed, what else did they have presentation-wise to rival what T&D and U&Z could offer? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything. Both of the other teams had a lot more maturity and polish IMO.

  13. #493

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    In terms of maturity, polish, and musical phrasing, T/D really showed the rest of the competition up.
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  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I can say Grishuk & Platov were by far the best in the FD in terms of effortless speed and ice coverage....

    Speed is an important technical quality that doesn't come across on video and so is easy for TV viewers to dismiss and difficult for judges to ignore.

    I bring it up every time this topic comes up because I think it does explain the results.
    I agree that speed is important; but approximately how much weight was speed supposed to have relative to other things, and in which mark(s)?

    and therefore anyone who dismisses it as solely due to politics is ignoring an actual compelling technical argument in its favor.
    I agree. Why would the result have been political?

    And then there were rule violations/deductions to consider.
    That's a big one. If we ever find a rulebook and if in fact G&P did deserve 3 deductions, then I would say that they definitely should not have won and that the majority of the judges did not take those deductions.

    I dismiss any opinions that offer only insults or only weaknesses for the least favorite team and only praise for the favorites, because they tell me more about the poster's biases than about the skating. I welcome any analysis that teaches me more details to take into consideration.
    Agreed. And one encounters a lot of such headiness in discussions about the most recent Olympic ladies' event.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    In terms of maturity, polish, and musical phrasing, T/D really showed the rest of the competition up.
    Do you mean in all 3 phases? Well, U&Z were no slouches either; but yes, I'd give T&D the nod there.

    To clarify what I said earlier, G&P also had a lot of energy and exuberance, which is related to speed but not necessarily the same thing. Anyway, apart from their speed and energy, I don't see much in terms of presentation that G&P were inherently superior in--either in their FD or in general.
    Last edited by neptune; 04-24-2014 at 07:36 AM.

  16. #496

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Do you mean in all 3 phases? Well, U&Z were no slouches either; but yes, I'd give T&D the nod there.

    To clarify what I said earlier, G&P also had a lot of energy and exuberance, which is related to speed but not necessarily the same thing. Anyway, apart from their speed and energy, I don't see much in terms of presentation that G&P were inherently superior in--either in their FD or in general.
    Not sure about the compulsories as I heard T/D were over marked in those phases. However, that OD was the perfect Rhumba. Usova/Zhulin's was really great too and had great interpretation. However, yes, T/D showed them up there. As for the FD, as old-fashioned as that dance was, it had character, polish, and musicality. The Euros version had more substantive skating and dance while the Olympic version was more crowd-friendly, but I think they did the most with their music and danced it like pros. It was something that U/Z didn't quite have and G/P definitely did not have. Despite me saying all of that, I am not saying T/D should have won gold. Just that in those specific aspects, T/D's years of professional skating really showed in the way they were able to perform their OD and FD.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  17. #497
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    I do think they were superior technically.
    They might have been superior in this aspect. But actually I think they didn't show it. Their speed made it unable to show this. They were famous of their deep edges, free strong legs, etc. But their Rock'n roll didn't emphasise that (see post #483)
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-24-2014 at 08:10 AM.

  18. #498
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    I agree. Why would the result have been political?
    I'm not saying that judging was political during this event. But actually many experts believe that politics interfere in judging. I would like to cite a fragment of interview from 1993 with already mentioned here choreographer Shanti Ruchpaul. She believed already that G/P would win. But she was also asked about U/Z.

    "Q. Then what placement do you foresee for Usova-Zhulin?
    “I don’t know. They are also incredibly talented. But when two pairs from one country are fighting for the gold medal, it’s always a question of internal politics, and often not the talent of the athletes or choreographer.”.

  19. #499
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    Agreed. And one encounters a lot of such headiness in discussions about the most recent Olympic ladies' event.
    Yeah, it's sad. But because of nature of FS, it's not the last time. Let's wait for the next competition and it will happen again.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    They might have been superior in this aspect. But actually I think they didn't show it. Their speed made it unable to show this. They were famous of their deep edges, free strong legs, etc. But their Rock'n roll didn't emphasise that (see post #483)
    I agree. I just meant that their ability itself was probably superior.

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