Page 21 of 44 FirstFirst ... 11192021222331 ... LastLast
Results 401 to 420 of 869
  1. #401
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    There's one near you!!! :)
    Posts
    3,952
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Back then, they were working with Dubova and her choreographer. And that lady was a far superior choreographer to Linichuk. Then again, a whole lot of people are far superior choreographers to Linichuk!
    What years were G&P with Dubova vs. Linichuk? Looking back, maybe Belbin & Agosto didn't do themselves too many favors by moving to Linichukstan either.

  2. #402

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,803
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36444
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I hate his commentary on singles, especialy ladies. His fixation on spirals and laybacks to the extent of all else is annoying. He is also a Kwan and Cohen uber and Russian hater (even the men like Yagudin and Plushenko) of the worst kind. Funny how he never made hardly a comment on her layback, even befoe she developed a reasonably good one in 2001.
    Actually, after 1998, Button and Fleming criticized Kwan's layback big time with the baby ballerinas coming to the forefront to challenge Kwan. Button treated Kwan with kid gloves, but check out his commentary of Kwan's last performance of Bolero at the 2005 Cheesefest (where she beat Cohen and performed 6 triples). He was super harsh to her.

    On the topic of G/P, I really do wonder how they would have developed if they continued with Dubova, and there was no Usova/Zhulin love complication getting in the way of their development under her. I wonder what Dubova would have emphasized with them and what kind of programs they would have had. I think their programs under Dubova were way better than they were under Linichuck (even though I did like their 1995 OD and FD). G/P had great programs in 1997 under Tarasova (although how much of that work was hers or was Linichuck's or outside choreographers with G/P working on their own in choreography is unknown). However, I thought their 1998 programs were blah. Their Jive was the lamest jive out there other than B/K's and Memorial just fell flat for me even though I know they were trying to make it their Bolero.

    I think their execution and control and may have been better under Dubova's teaching than Linichuck's while still maintaining their power and speed. I even think their dances may have had more substance too. I think their 1992 OD and FD are good examples of what could have been had they continued with Dubova.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #403
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,188
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    G&P's Jive didnt do anything for me, but I loved their Memorial. I know some thought it was a ripoff of Torvill & Dean, but I didnt find anything similar between the two programs. Just skating to percussion heavy music and wearing purple does not make a wannabee Bolero. They did take some of Bestiamanova & Bukin's signature moves (only their best ones) but again the program was nothing overall like any B&B program either.

    I agree their blandest programs were under Linichuk, although I did like their 95 programs and thought they could have been incredible if they had a whole season to train them properly. Linichuk isnt really that interesting a choreographer like Dubova or Tarasova IMO. She probably is like what she was as a skater, technically very good and sound, but not very adventerous, creative, or liberal.

    I loved G&P's 92 programs. They were so voidy and interesting, and it was great Dubova gave the reigns to such a young team after keeping a harness on K&P too long. Maybe she didnt want to lose another star team (although thanks to Zhulins pecker she did anyway).

  4. #404

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,803
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36444
    The problem with Linichuck's choreography is that she doesn't really have subtext. It's really all unconvincing. Someone called her "aggressively banal" while saying Igor/Marina were "banal" one time. And I think that's an apt description. She might make her teams do all sorts of crazy arm movements, pull each other, do ultra dramatic O faces, but it's just as boring as the most generic Marina program…just boring in a different way.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #405
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Do you mean in their FD at Lillehammer?
    Yes. And I know that it is normal for skaters to keep open mouth, because of smiling, breathing, etc. and it has never bothered me, except for Oksana's open mouth in that 1994 FD.

    You know, it's funny--I just watched G&P's OD from 1992. That dance was very intricate but smooth. Even the commentators mentioned that.
    I don't remembet that OD but I will return to this.

  6. #406
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Also, the US broadcasters really had a down on them and I was tired of listening to those folks complaining about their results.
    I know the commentaries only from YT videos, but I think you guys are exaggerating. What I have heard in many of those videos, was clear appreciation of G/P dances. But it’s important that commentators see both their strengths and weaknesses. It seems to me that you would rather they praised G/P all the time and didn’t mention any of G/P’s mistakes.

  7. #407
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,188
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The problem with Linichuck's choreography is that she doesn't really have subtext. It's really all unconvincing. Someone called her "aggressively banal" while saying Igor/Marina were "banal" one time. And I think that's an apt description. She might make her teams do all sorts of crazy arm movements, pull each other, do ultra dramatic O faces, but it's just as boring as the most generic Marina program…just boring in a different way.
    Oh well, atleast its still more interesting than the programs she skated atleast.

  8. #408
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    In fairness it is unusual to see the worlds best/dominant team falling and stumbling around from competition to competition, even if they still did enough to merit their wins.

    They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories.
    I believe stumbling or falling in ice dancing are huge mistakes. It’s not surprising that viewers feel offended if those are not penalised. When I/K made a huge mistake in 2014 WC in their SD, it cost them a medal, even if their FD was scored as the best one. In the case of G/P it didn’t matter what mistakes they did, what rules they broke, they were always first. Even if they were the best team at the time, which had a best technique, it doesn’t mean that they always must have been given the 1st place. The judges should mark what they see on a particular day. It happens in many disciplines of sport that although you are better, you lose, because on the day of the competition your strategy doesn’t work, you have bad luck, or whatever. I’m still surprised that it never applied to G/P.
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-20-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  9. #409
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,416
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I wonder if looking back now she is ashamed. I sure hope so. I dont know why she would be so bitter towards G&P. She wasnt at all bitter towards a team like B&B, and was gracious and heavy in praise to them, even though the skating hierarchy had determined she had no hope of beating them despite most times probably a superior team, at least in a technical sense (which deep down I am sure she realized).
    Maybe something about G/P reopened old wounds. As a competitor, she was being politik to complement her competitors and not annoy the judging establishment, but as a broadcaster could finally vent her spleen.

    Remember also that Tracy Wilson is Canadian and was blindly in love with Bourne & Kraatz. I think she felt they were being unfairly held down by the same kind of chronically crooked ice dance judging that had victimized her & McCall and took it out on G/P.

  10. #410
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I believe stumbling or falling in ice dancing are huge mistakes. It’s not surprising that viewers feel offended if those are not penalised. When I/K made a huge mistake in 2014 WC in their SD, it cost them a medal, even if their FD was scored as the best one. In the case of G/P it didn’t matter what mistakes they did, what rules they broke, they were always first. Even if they were the best team at the time, which had a best technique, it doesn’t mean that they always must have been given the 1st place. The judges should mark what they see on a particular day. It happens in many disciplines of sport that although you are better, you lose, because on the day of the competition your strategy doesn’t work, you have bad luck, or whatever. I’m still surprised that it never applied to G/P.
    Relative to a clean K&O or B&K, a G&P program with errors is still superior, especially in 97 and 98 as their content and the level of their skating skills were that far ahead of the other 2 couples. The only other couple I might not apply that to is Anissina & Peizerat (in 97-98 anyways) because unlike K&O and B&K, they actually skated ambitious programs with interesting content even if their execution was often sloppy.

  11. #411
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Maybe something about G/P reopened old wounds. As a competitor, she was being politik to complement her competitors and not annoy the judging establishment, but as a broadcaster could finally vent her spleen.

    Remember also that Tracy Wilson is Canadian and was blindly in love with Bourne & Kraatz. I think she felt they were being unfairly held down by chronically crooked ice dance judging and took it out on G/P.
    How could she think they were being held down when their placements were often generous?!?! In no way they deserved 3rd at the 96 Worlds, they place 3rd in the OD at the 97 Worlds when they probably should've placed 5th, they placed 4th at the Olympics with atrocious programs that were poorly skated, and they were held up in 3rd in 1999 with slow and unconvincing skates that also had a major stumble at the end (although to their credit, they finally had some programs with more ambitious content even if that meant they had to skate with even less speed and flow than usual).

  12. #412
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,416
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I believe stumbling or falling in ice dancing are huge mistakes. It’s not surprising that viewers feel offended if those are not penalised. When I/K made a huge mistake in 2014 WC in their SD, it cost them a medal,
    IMO this comparison is faulty because the two teams competed under entirely different scoring systems. In the days before elements, ice dances were basically 4.5 minutes composed of hundreds of steps. The argument went that a mistake on one out of 500 steps can't be given a lot of weight because you still need to give due credit for the other 499 that were good. Today, ice dance is scored primarily based on the listed elements, so a mistake on an element becomes a much bigger deal. Even today, we still don't see much of a scoring hit taken on a stumble between elements. We also regularly see singles skaters win with mistakes even against clean skates by their competitors. I think the logic the judges placing G/P first applied is similar to the thinking in those results. If you are enough better than your competitor at other things and other parts of the program, you win even with mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Relative to a clean K&O or B&K, a G&P program with errors is still superior, especially in 97 and 98 as their content and the level of their skating skills were that far ahead of the other 2 couples. The only other couple I might not apply that to is Anissina & Peizerat (in 97-98 anyways) because unlike K&O and B&K, they actually skated ambitious programs with interesting content even if their execution was often sloppy.
    That's another difference that makes the above comparison inapt. I/K are not stronger skaters than the other teams placing around them, so there is nothing to off-set a mistake. The last few years of G/P's career, a lot of folks found them to be in a class of their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    How could she think they [B/K] were being held down when their placements were often generous?!?!
    That's where the "blindly in love" part came in.
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-20-2014 at 12:27 PM.

  13. #413
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Maybe something about G/P reopened old wounds.
    Somebody mentioned a few pages back that Tracy was Maya Usova's close friend.

    We also regularly see singles skaters win with mistakes even against clean skates by their competitors
    .
    I don't think we should compare ice dancing to single skating or even pairs.

    That's another difference that makes the above comparison inapt. I/K are not stronger skaters than the other teams placing around them, so there is nothing to off-set a mistake.
    That's the reason I didn't write that they lost gold, but just any medal. OK, so G/P desrved gold after all dances (Compulsories, OD and FD), but G/P were even first in the particular dance, where they had mistakes. As already wrote I agree that they were better techincal skaters, but I don't believe that the difference between them and other teams was so huge, that no matter what, they always deserved to be the 1st.

  14. #414
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Somebody mentioned a few pages back that Tracy was Maya Usova's close friend.

    .
    I don't think we should compare ice dancing to single skating or even pairs.


    That's the reason I didn't write that they lost gold, but just any medal. OK, so G/P desrved gold after all dances (Compulsaries, OD and FD), but G/P were even first in the particular dance, where they had mistakes. As already wrote I agree that they were better techincal skaters, but I don't believe that the difference between them and other teams was so huge, that no matter what, they always deserved to be the 1st.
    You're free to believe that. Obviously many others (including most of the judges) disagreed with you. Kyrlova & Ovsiannikov had an unattractive golden waltz in 98 that looked like it was worked at (and her odd back posture was very pronounced in that dance) and their expression in both the OD and FD that year were just vomit inducing. B&K skated their entire programs either hand to hand or side by side. In 1997, G&P's programs had far more content than either couples again. if G&P skated very simple programs and made errors, then yes give their rivals higher ordinals. But that wasn't the case. Not only are they superior skaters but they had far superior programs as well. They were in a class by themselves at that time.

  15. #415
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    You're free to believe that.
    Yes, I'm not going to change my opinion.
    (and her odd back posture was very pronounced in that dance) and their expression in both the OD and FD that year were just vomit inducing.
    Your opinions are hardly objective, either

  16. #416
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Yes, I'm not going to change my opinion.

    Your opinions are hardly objective, either
    I think my opinion of finding her back posture odd and their facial expressions insincere and over-the-top (probably to take attention away from their mediocre content) is perfectly valid.

  17. #417
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think my opinion of finding her back posture odd and their facial expressions insincere and over-the-top
    That's something similar to what I always thought about Oksana. I hated her facial expressions and upper body movements. But I don't believe it is an objective argument.

  18. #418
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think it's an objective argument. Oksana needed better discipline with her upper body movements when she was younger (although they were actually quite good during compulsories - not as much in the OD and FD). Her neck and shoulder line didn't match Evgeni's and it could sometimes be distracting. And yes, her facial expressions could also be over the top. Her facial expressions in their 94 FD was probably used to distract attention away from their lack of content as that was one of the weakest FD's they ever did in that regard. They still weren't as over the top as Krylova's though who's smile looked clownish and her looked of angst made her look downright psychotic.

    That being said, G&P were still better technical skaters than Krylova & partner (Fedorov or Ovsiannikov) ever were and the always had superior content and choreography, even during their Linichuk years where G&P had second rate choreography since Linichuk was a second rate choreographer. Luckily for them, she also gave K&O second rate choreography.

  19. #419
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I must say that Platov's inability to keep his feet on the ice didn't help G&P's reputation. Although I absolutely think they were in a class of their own during their 4-year reign, I can see why casual fans got frustrated with seeing him fall and still win over teams who went clean. In fairness though, they were second after the OD at the 1998 Europeans because of Platov's fall, so they didn't always win the segments of the competition in which he fell.

    The funny thing is that Platov in a recent-ish interview said how harshly ice dancers should be punished for falls because you shouldn't be allowed to fall on your face and still win

  20. #420
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    They still weren't as over the top as Krylova's though who's smile looked clownish and her looked of angst made her look downright psychotic.
    "vomit inducing", "downright psychotic" I love your arguments

Page 21 of 44 FirstFirst ... 11192021222331 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •