On the topic of G/P, I really do wonder how they would have developed if they continued with Dubova, and there was no Usova/Zhulin love complication getting in the way of their development under her. I wonder what Dubova would have emphasized with them and what kind of programs they would have had. I think their programs under Dubova were way better than they were under Linichuck (even though I did like their 1995 OD and FD). G/P had great programs in 1997 under Tarasova (although how much of that work was hers or was Linichuck's or outside choreographers with G/P working on their own in choreography is unknown). However, I thought their 1998 programs were blah. Their Jive was the lamest jive out there other than B/K's and Memorial just fell flat for me even though I know they were trying to make it their Bolero.
I think their execution and control and may have been better under Dubova's teaching than Linichuck's while still maintaining their power and speed. I even think their dances may have had more substance too. I think their 1992 OD and FD are good examples of what could have been had they continued with Dubova.
G&P's Jive didnt do anything for me, but I loved their Memorial. I know some thought it was a ripoff of Torvill & Dean, but I didnt find anything similar between the two programs. Just skating to percussion heavy music and wearing purple does not make a wannabee Bolero. They did take some of Bestiamanova & Bukin's signature moves (only their best ones) but again the program was nothing overall like any B&B program either.
I agree their blandest programs were under Linichuk, although I did like their 95 programs and thought they could have been incredible if they had a whole season to train them properly. Linichuk isnt really that interesting a choreographer like Dubova or Tarasova IMO. She probably is like what she was as a skater, technically very good and sound, but not very adventerous, creative, or liberal.
I loved G&P's 92 programs. They were so voidy and interesting, and it was great Dubova gave the reigns to such a young team after keeping a harness on K&P too long. Maybe she didnt want to lose another star team (although thanks to Zhulins pecker she did anyway).
The problem with Linichuck's choreography is that she doesn't really have subtext. It's really all unconvincing. Someone called her "aggressively banal" while saying Igor/Marina were "banal" one time. And I think that's an apt description. She might make her teams do all sorts of crazy arm movements, pull each other, do ultra dramatic O faces, but it's just as boring as the most generic Marina program…just boring in a different way.
Yes. And I know that it is normal for skaters to keep open mouth, because of smiling, breathing, etc. and it has never bothered me, except for Oksana's open mouth in that 1994 FD.Do you mean in their FD at Lillehammer?
I don't remembet that OD but I will return to this.You know, it's funny--I just watched G&P's OD from 1992. That dance was very intricate but smooth. Even the commentators mentioned that.
I know the commentaries only from YT videos, but I think you guys are exaggerating. What I have heard in many of those videos, was clear appreciation of G/P dances. But it’s important that commentators see both their strengths and weaknesses. It seems to me that you would rather they praised G/P all the time and didn’t mention any of G/P’s mistakes.Also, the US broadcasters really had a down on them and I was tired of listening to those folks complaining about their results.
I believe stumbling or falling in ice dancing are huge mistakes. It’s not surprising that viewers feel offended if those are not penalised. When I/K made a huge mistake in 2014 WC in their SD, it cost them a medal, even if their FD was scored as the best one. In the case of G/P it didn’t matter what mistakes they did, what rules they broke, they were always first. Even if they were the best team at the time, which had a best technique, it doesn’t mean that they always must have been given the 1st place. The judges should mark what they see on a particular day. It happens in many disciplines of sport that although you are better, you lose, because on the day of the competition your strategy doesn’t work, you have bad luck, or whatever. I’m still surprised that it never applied to G/P.In fairness it is unusual to see the worlds best/dominant team falling and stumbling around from competition to competition, even if they still did enough to merit their wins.
They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories.
Last edited by coraczek; 04-20-2014 at 09:56 AM.
Remember also that Tracy Wilson is Canadian and was blindly in love with Bourne & Kraatz. I think she felt they were being unfairly held down by the same kind of chronically crooked ice dance judging that had victimized her & McCall and took it out on G/P.
Last edited by Susan M; 04-20-2014 at 12:27 PM.
Somebody mentioned a few pages back that Tracy was Maya Usova's close friend.Maybe something about G/P reopened old wounds.
.We also regularly see singles skaters win with mistakes even against clean skates by their competitors
I don't think we should compare ice dancing to single skating or even pairs.
That's the reason I didn't write that they lost gold, but just any medal. OK, so G/P desrved gold after all dances (Compulsories, OD and FD), but G/P were even first in the particular dance, where they had mistakes. As already wrote I agree that they were better techincal skaters, but I don't believe that the difference between them and other teams was so huge, that no matter what, they always deserved to be the 1st.That's another difference that makes the above comparison inapt. I/K are not stronger skaters than the other teams placing around them, so there is nothing to off-set a mistake.
Yes, I'm not going to change my opinion.You're free to believe that.
Your opinions are hardly objective, either(and her odd back posture was very pronounced in that dance) and their expression in both the OD and FD that year were just vomit inducing.
That's something similar to what I always thought about Oksana. I hated her facial expressions and upper body movements. But I don't believe it is an objective argument.I think my opinion of finding her back posture odd and their facial expressions insincere and over-the-top
I think it's an objective argument. Oksana needed better discipline with her upper body movements when she was younger (although they were actually quite good during compulsories - not as much in the OD and FD). Her neck and shoulder line didn't match Evgeni's and it could sometimes be distracting. And yes, her facial expressions could also be over the top. Her facial expressions in their 94 FD was probably used to distract attention away from their lack of content as that was one of the weakest FD's they ever did in that regard. They still weren't as over the top as Krylova's though who's smile looked clownish and her looked of angst made her look downright psychotic.
That being said, G&P were still better technical skaters than Krylova & partner (Fedorov or Ovsiannikov) ever were and the always had superior content and choreography, even during their Linichuk years where G&P had second rate choreography since Linichuk was a second rate choreographer. Luckily for them, she also gave K&O second rate choreography.
I must say that Platov's inability to keep his feet on the ice didn't help G&P's reputation. Although I absolutely think they were in a class of their own during their 4-year reign, I can see why casual fans got frustrated with seeing him fall and still win over teams who went clean. In fairness though, they were second after the OD at the 1998 Europeans because of Platov's fall, so they didn't always win the segments of the competition in which he fell.
The funny thing is that Platov in a recent-ish interview said how harshly ice dancers should be punished for falls because you shouldn't be allowed to fall on your face and still win
"vomit inducing", "downright psychotic" I love your argumentsThey still weren't as over the top as Krylova's though who's smile looked clownish and her looked of angst made her look downright psychotic.