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  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Yes Judy did an excellent job. She did praise B&K's good points too but called the construction of the program baffling at best. I think Dubova while an excellent technical coach, was herself jaded and blinded by bitterness after some dissapointments, and bought too much into the silly NA "bloc judging otherwise B&K would be dominating and unbeatable" false hype and didnt even sit back and objecitvely analyze what she was working on with them, and correcting their weaknesses. She did do a good job adding more footwork to their routines, and making them less just the hydro blade kids. Even though I didnt agree with their 96 world bronze the improvement in their programs from the grand prix final only a month earlier which made that medal possible was astonishing and does show her expertise as a dance coach. However she also bought into the hype on them too much, and seemed blinded to what their true abilities were, and what they still needed to work on.

    While I loved Riverdance when it first came out, and still do in many ways, it also was a bad program for them in many ways as it showed all their worst weaknesses. So much side by side skating, the few moments in that dance they were even hand to hand rather than not even that were their hardest dance holds off the dance, and that is what is most teams even ones at the bottom the easiest. Shae Lynn's awful posture, especialy in the slow part. Their unision problems, although at the 98 worlds FD they did have their best ever performance to it and had their unision better than I ever saw it (although I still agreed with their 3rd place in that dance). It shows she had bought into the hype and was not even realistic in assessing them anymore. She probably was immune to putting out a dance that showcased their biggest weaknesses, as she deluded herself into thinking they were the perfect team who didnt have any.
    Yeah, Dubova was probably very jaded by that point. But she only had herself to blame. She lost Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka because of her favouritism. Perhaps you're right that she was desperate to coach an Olympic champion so she convinced herself that B&K were the one even though they weren't an Olympic gold calibre team.

    At the 98 Worlds, who would you've placed 1st and 2nd in the FD? I personally had Anissina & Peizerat first, Punsulen & Swallow second, and either B&K or K&O in 3rd.

  2. #382
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    Concerning Dubova again, I just remembered that she also once coached Linichuk & Karponosov back int the 70s before they left her for Chaikovskaya! I think they left her for a different reason though as from what I remember, Dubova was a young and inexperienced coach and Linichuk wanted someone with more heft to make a champion out of her.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Yeah, Dubova was probably very jaded by that point. But she only had herself to blame. She lost Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka because of her favouritism. Perhaps you're right that she was desperate to coach an Olympic champion so she convinced herself that B&K were the one even though they weren't an Olympic gold calibre team.

    At the 98 Worlds, who would you've placed 1st and 2nd in the FD? I personally had Anissina & Peizerat first, Punsulen & Swallow second, and either B&K or K&O in 3rd.
    I had Anissina & Peizerat 1st in the FD, Punsalen & Swallow 2nd, Bourne & Kraatz 3rd, and Krylova & Ovsiannikov 4th. In the OD I had Anissina & Peizerat 1st with a 5.9 for technical merit and 6.0 for presentation, Krylova & Ovsiannikov a distant 2nd with 5.7, 5.7, Lobacheva & Averbuhk 3rd. I didnt see that many other teams, but I had Bourne & Kraatz above the Italians in the OD this time though, unlike the Olympics when I had it reverse. Their OD sucked, but they atleast skated it much better than the Olympics, while the Italians wasnt exactly full of content either and wasnt as well skated.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Concerning Dubova again, I just remembered that she also once coached Linichuk & Karponosov back int the 70s before they left her for Chaikovskaya! I think they left her for a different reason though as from what I remember, Dubova was a young and inexperienced coach and Linichuk wanted someone with more heft to make a champion out of her.
    I cant help but laugh at the idea of Dubova coaching Linichuk.

  5. #385
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    Well, we all have our own tastes. But I found G&P's dancing to be rather clumsy and herky-jerky.
    Lots of people agree with this, me included.

    But there was also one thing about G/P performance that probably was disturbing just for me and had nothing to do with the dance itself. I couldn’t stand Oksana’s open mouth. I kept thinking that if it weren’t for the indoor arena, flies would fall into her mouth. Of course judges couldn’t take this into account while making the verdict
    I realise I'm nasty now.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I cant help but laugh at the idea of Dubova coaching Linichuk.
    Ditto here! But still, Dubova has had a hand in coaching many many high profile teams. Linichuk & Karponosov, Moiseeva & Minenkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Krikanova & Platov, Usova & Zhulin, Fedorinova & Platov, Grishuk & Platov, Navka & Gezalijan, and then later Bourne & Kraatz. I can't recall who she coached after that but I do vaguely remember seeing her in the kiss and cry area in SLC with Chait & Sakhnovsky.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I actually thought A&P were a better team than K&O with less political favor. Maybe not so much when they were competing with each other, but by 99 I thought A&P had surpassed K&O.
    I also thought A&P were the team with greater potential. I don't think K&O would have had smooth sailing thru the next Olympics had they stayed in.

    Though not my favorites initially, I came to really appreciate what Grishuk & Platov brought to dance. To me, they were without question the best team from 95-98. That said, I was not sorry to see them retire after 98, as her act was wearing thin. Also, the US broadcasters really had a down on them and I was tired of listening to those folks complaining about their results.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I also thought A&P were the team with greater potential. I don't think K&O would have had smooth sailing thru the next Olympics had they stayed in.

    Though not my favorites initially, I came to really appreciate what Grishuk & Platov brought to dance. To me, they were without question the best team from 95-98. That said, I was not sorry to see them retire after 98, as her act was wearing thin. Also, the US broadcasters really had a down on them and I was tired of listening to those folks complaining about their results.
    Were the US commentators down on them? Judy Blumberg seemed to have nothing but praise for them while Dick Button seemed to strongly prefer them to either K&O or B&K. I'm not familiar with any other U.S commentary on them though.

  9. #389
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    Tracy Wilson, Scott Hamilton, Verne Lundquist, Susie Wynne, Peter Carruthers, Rosalynn Sumners, all enjoyed dumping on them at each opportunity. Susie Wynne called the 5.6 the Canadian or American judge gave them for technical merit for their FD at the grand prix final a fair and accurate mark, and said the rest should be more like that.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Tracy Wilson, Scott Hamilton, Verne Lundquist, Susie Wynne, Peter Carruthers, Rosalynn Sumners, all enjoyed dumping on them at each opportunity.
    Oh right, I keep forgetting Tracy did commentary for U.S tv a lot during that decade (don't know why that keeps slipping my mind). Peter Carruthers seemed very fond of them in 95-96 but I guess he changed his mind. I've only heard Susie Wynne do commentary on them once and she seemed mixed on them.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Oh right, I keep forgetting Tracy did commentary for U.S tv a lot during that decade (don't know why that keeps slipping my mind). Peter Carruthers seemed very fond of them in 95-96 but I guess he changed his mind. I've only heard Susie Wynne do commentary on them once and she seemed mixed on them.
    Wynne and Carruthers were positive on them at one point but in the Olympic season they were much less so. In fairness G&P were making alot of glaring mistakes that season, some falls and stumbles in various programs. Dance experts (which say Carruthers, Sumners, Lundquist, and Hamilton would definitely not fall into) are supposed to see past that and see the differences in basic skating, content, and technical ability that can overcome those mistakes at times, but they did give people a reason/excuse to pick at them some that season. In fairness it is unusual to see the worlds best/dominant team falling and stumbling around from competition to competition, even if they still did enough to merit their wins.

    They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories. Had they skated like Europeans I am sure pretty much all (except maybe sourpuss Wilson) would just be gushing about how great they were. The Euro team were comparing them T&D at their height at Europeans, but unfortunately they had some problems and werent as impressive at worlds, and that is where it all started, and their continuing to make mistakes the next season fed into the unfair slandering of them more.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Wynne and Carruthers were positive on them at one point but in the Olympic season they were much less so. In fairness G&P were making alot of glaring mistakes that season, some falls and stumbles in various programs. Dance experts (which say Carruthers, Sumners, Lundquist, and Hamilton would definitely not fall into) are supposed to see past that and see the differences in basic skating, content, and technical ability that can overcome those mistakes at times, but they did give people a reason/excuse to pick at them some that season. In fairness it is unusual to see the worlds best/dominant team falling and stumbling around from competition to competition, even if they still did enough to merit their wins.

    They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories. Had they skated like Europeans I am sure pretty much all (except maybe sourpuss Wilson) would just be gushing about how great they were. The Euro team were comparing them T&D at their height at Europeans, but unfortunately they had some problems and werent as impressive at worlds, and that is where it all started, and their continuing to make mistakes the next season fed into the unfair slandering of them more.
    I guess it was good that there were still commentators like Judy Blumberg and Dick Button who were positive when it came to Grishuk & Platov. And I'm not even a fan of the latter when it comes to commentating. He seems to have relatively good tastes when it comes to ice dance though (in my eyes anyways). He hated Bestemianova & Bukhin but loved Klimova & Ponomarenko. He seemed positive on Grishuk & Platov (during their time with Tarasova anyways, not so much during their stint with Linichuk).

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories. Had they skated like Europeans I am sure pretty much all (except maybe sourpuss Wilson) would just be gushing about how great they were. The Euro team were comparing them T&D at their height at Europeans, but unfortunately they had some problems and werent as impressive at worlds, and that is where it all started, and their continuing to make mistakes the next season fed into the unfair slandering of them more.
    Oh God, did you see the CBC commentary that year where Tracy Wilson criticized The Feeling Begins as G&P skating very fast and then just posing? I seriously wanted to slap her at that point. To blatantly lie like is just inexcusable.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I guess it was good that there were still commentators like Judy Blumberg and Dick Button who were positive when it came to Grishuk & Platov. And I'm not even a fan of the latter when it comes to commentating. He seems to have relatively good tastes when it comes to ice dance though (in my eyes anyways). He hated Bestemianova & Bukhin but loved Klimova & Ponomarenko. He seemed positive on Grishuk & Platov (during their time with Tarasova anyways, not so much during their stint with Linichuk).
    I hate his commentary on singles, especialy ladies. His fixation on spirals and laybacks to the extent of all else is annoying. He is also a Kwan and Cohen uber and Russian hater (even the men like Yagudin and Plushenko) of the worst kind. Funny how he never made hardly a comment on her layback, even befoe she developed a reasonably good one in 2001.

    The man is a genius though. Deep down he knows his stuff on anything. Including ice dance. His assessments on B&K vs G&P at the 97 worlds were frank and very fair. He pointed out B&K's positive qualities and liked their dance alot, and commended their improvement since last year, but he also pointed out the difficulty of the program, and the power and impact of it being nowhere near G&P and hence the lower marks, especialy in technical merit.

  15. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Oh God, did you see the CBC commentary that year where Tracy Wilson criticized The Feeling Begins as G&P skating very fast and then just posing? I seriously wanted to slap her at that point. To blatantly lie like is just inexcusable.
    She needs to look up the word posing in the dictionary. Doing a few portions where the moves get a bit slower but you are still doing footwork or upper body movements while moving very fast along the ice is not posing. Baiul is what posing is.

  16. #396
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    Exactly! And true, there were moves were amateurs or ignoramuses might consider 'posing' but holding positions while gliding over running edges dose not fall into that category! Funny how she would applaud other couples for showing such abilities but criticize G&P for doing so and labeling it as something else completely. Like I mentioned elsewhere, her commentary on G&P during that decade should be looked upon as a major source of shame for her.

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    But there was also one thing about G/P performance that probably was disturbing just for me and had nothing to do with the dance itself. I couldn’t stand Oksana’s open mouth.
    Do you mean in their FD at Lillehammer?

    I kept thinking that if it weren’t for the indoor arena, flies would fall into her mouth. Of course judges couldn’t take this into account while making the verdict
    Well, they could have awarded extra points for pest control.

    You know, it's funny--I just watched G&P's OD from 1992. That dance was very intricate but smooth. Even the commentators mentioned that. They also said that G&P were perhaps the best in the world (even then) at covering an ice rink. I found their performance quite charming as well. Now, if they normally skated that way, then I would've been able to get into them a lot more. Too bad they didn't have an intricate and smooth dance for Lillehammer. Of course, none of the top couples had great dances there, but I thought G&P's dance was the emptiest and most gimmicky. Yes, it was fun, but the entertainment value concealed a lot of flaws IMO.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Exactly! And true, there were moves were amateurs or ignoramuses might consider 'posing' but holding positions while gliding over running edges dose not fall into that category! Funny how she would applaud other couples for showing such abilities but criticize G&P for doing so and labeling it as something else completely. Like I mentioned elsewhere, her commentary on G&P during that decade should be looked upon as a major source of shame for her.
    I wonder if looking back now she is ashamed. I sure hope so. I dont know why she would be so bitter towards G&P. She wasnt at all bitter towards a team like B&B, and was gracious and heavy in praise to them, even though the skating hierarchy had determined she had no hope of beating them despite most times probably a superior team, atleast in a technical sense (which deep down I am sure she realized). It is not like she was ever even competing against G&P.

  19. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Do you mean in their FD at Lillehammer?



    Well, they could have awarded extra points for pest control.

    You know, it's funny--I just watched G&P's OD from 1992. That dance was very intricate but smooth. Even the commentators mentioned that. They also said that G&P were perhaps the best in the world (even then) at covering an ice rink. I found their performance quite charming as well. Now, if they normally skated that way, then I would've been able to get into them a lot more. Too bad they didn't have an intricate and smooth dance for Lillehammer. Of course, none of the top couples had great dances there, but I thought G&P's dance was the emptiest and most gimmicky. Yes, it was fun, but the entertainment value concealed a lot of flaws IMO.
    Back then, they were working with Dubova and her choreographer. And that lady was a far superior choreographer to Linichuk. Then again, a whole lot of people are far superior choreographers to Linichuk!

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I wonder if looking back now she is ashamed. I sure hope so. I dont know why she would be so bitter towards G&P. She wasnt at all bitter towards a team like B&B, and was gracious and heavy in praise to them, even though the skating hierarchy had determined she had no hope of beating them despite most times probably a superior team, atleast in a technical sense (which deep down I am sure she realized). It is not like she was ever even competing against G&P.
    I too hope she's ashamed, especially for someone who actually does know a lot about the sport. I also found it funny how she (grudgingly) acknowledged that G&P had extremely strong free legs in 98 and how they used their running edges well to speed around corners so they could extend them yet trash them as much as possible at other times and then at the 2002 and 2006 Olympics she would place a ton of emphasis on the important of free leg positions. I kept thinking if they're that important, then why'd you badmouth a team who demonstrated those very strengths that you're emphasizing now!!! She could be truly infuriating at times.
    Last edited by gk_891; 04-20-2014 at 03:18 AM.

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