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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    All geniuses are a bit crazy and narcissistic.
    There are always exceptions.

    That is why Pasha and Dean are, and moreso than their partners who while great skaters are not true geniuses and stars in the same way. That is also why Scott Moir and Patrick Chan are both a bit of an ass. Anyone remember John Curry and Toller Cranston, now they take the cake, lol! The rest arent since while they might be great, they still arent true genuises.
    So why doesn't Janet Lynn fit this mold then? Geniuses can certainly let their talents go to their heads, but they don't absolutely have to. Besides, being crazy and narcissistic doesn't require any special talent. Anybody can do it.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I love it
    Yeah, I think that reviewer deserved some sort of prize.

    I only heard that they couldn't stand each other, so spent as much time as they thought it was necessary minimum, not more. But I don't know if is true, maybe just some gossips.
    OK, thanks. Definitely not lack of work ethic then. I wonder if they've ever regretted choosing that FD? I also wonder if Kerrigan has ever regretted choosing her program. If not, then that would seem to indicate that these folks have some serious blind spots that they've never overcome.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I agree that G&P were better technically, but definitely not artistically. In fact, I think G&P were the Mariah Careys of the dance world--a lot of technical ability, but not much else. I love this description of Mariah Carey that a British reviewer once gave, and I think it fits G&P as well:

    [Carey] has a fine technical voice but the emotional resonance of a car park.
    I disagree. For me (and for many casual fans I know) G&P brought excitement back into ice dance. People tuned in just to watch them. Their "love-hate" chemistry was electrifying and they pushed ice dance to a new level. After they retired, I couldn't bring myself to watch ice dance for many years. Anissina & Peizerat and Navka & Kostomarov were so ordinary, boring and uneventful (and of course less gifted) in comparison to G&P. I still miss Pasha's persona now, although I think ice dance has a little bit more drama this season

  4. #364
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    I miss Pasha. Is she currently involved in the sport?

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by soxxy View Post
    I miss Pasha. Is she currently involved in the sport?
    I think she just coaches children in California, although before Sochi she said she briefly worked with I&K and was raving about how talented they are. I would love to see Pasha as a choreographer for some of the top teams.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I disagree. For me (and for many casual fans I know) G&P brought excitement back into ice dance. People tuned in just to watch them. Their "love-hate" chemistry was electrifying and they pushed ice dance to a new level. After they retired, I couldn't bring myself to watch ice dance for many years. Anissina & Peizerat and Navka & Kostomarov were so ordinary, boring and uneventful (and of course less gifted) in comparison to G&P. I still miss Pasha's persona now, although I think ice dance has a little bit more drama this season
    It was too bad K&O got hurt too. They were worthy rivals to G&P when they competed, and fully deserved their 4 year reign on top.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    It was too bad K&O got hurt too. They were worthy rivals to G&P when they competed, and fully deserved their 4 year reign on top.
    I agree about K&O. It's a shame they couldn't stay until 2002. They were a higher quality team than A&P.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I agree about K&O. It's a shame they couldn't stay until 2002. They were a higher quality team than A&P.
    I personally disagree. A&P almost always skated much more ambitious programs with a lot more content (the one exception may have been 1999 but I'm not sold on K&O's terrible jungle FD that was skated almost entire hand to hand or side by side). Their issues in 1998-2001 was that their execution was sloppy and their unison was very suspect. But otherwise, they were excellent skaters.

  9. #369
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    I actually thought A&P were a better team than K&O with less political favor. Maybe not so much when they were competing with each other, but by 99 I thought A&P had surpassed K&O.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I didnt say I would have even placed them 1st in the Golden Waltz and Jive in 98. Just that I believe you could make a case to have them 1st, and I understand how some judges had them there.

    I didnt like any of the ODs in Nagano. It is too bad A&P messed up their OD as they had by FAR the best OD of any team that year, and would have easily deserved 1st in that phase in Nagano skating it well. Although even if they skated it perfectly like worlds and the GPF I am sure the judges would have still placed them 3rd, which is a total farce. Their OD at worlds should have 5.9s and 6.0s by every judge on both sets of marks (and I am not an A&P uber, but that particular program was clearly the best skated like that) and instead had all 2nds behind K&O. They even got beaten by Bourne & Kraatz in the OD at the GPF.

    K&O's FD I might have placed 3rd or 4th in that phase in Nagano although they still probably deserved the silver overall. I actually thought Punsalen & Swallow had legitimately a better FD.
    Oh yes, I wasn't saying that you thought they should've placed first in the golden waltz and jive in 98. I'm just trying to personally refute why that shouldn't be the case for those who believe so.

    I also think K&O's FD should've placed about 4th. I personally had A&P in second and Punsulen and Swallow 3rd which surprises even me as I don't even like P&S. But that FD of theirs that season was excellent.

    Funnily enough, I had Punsulen & Swallow in 3rd for the golden waltz, 6th in the Argentine tango, 5th or 6th in the OD, and 3rd in the FD. Not sure where that would place them though overall.

  11. #371
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    Sorry I posted that in the wrong thread which is why I changed my message. I agree with all your placements for P&S. I thought their golden waltz was probably better than A&P's which looked a bit sloppy in some ways. Their Argentine Tango had a stumble but I didnt see all the teams, and they were one of the only teams to step on true outside edges on the crossrolls (K&O didnt even do it, dont remember if G&P did or not). Their OD had a stumble too but was otherwise good compared to many of the awful ODs that year. Their FD was one of the best that year given there were a number of train wrecks that year which had significantly less content than they had in that years FD.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I actually thought A&P were a better team than K&O with less political favor. Maybe not so much when they were competing with each other, but by 99 I thought A&P had surpassed K&O.
    I actually thought A&P surpassed K&O in 98 as well!

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sorry I posted that in the wrong thread which is why I changed my message. I agree with all your placements for P&S. I thought their golden waltz was probably better than A&P's which looked a bit sloppy in some ways. Their Argentine Tango had a stumble but I didnt see all the teams, and they were one of the only teams to step on true outside edges on the crossrolls (K&O didnt even do it, dont remember if G&P did or not). Their OD had a stumble too but was otherwise good compared to many of the awful ODs that year. Their FD was one of the best that year given there were a number of train wrecks that year which had significantly less content than they had in that years FD.
    Yeah, a lot of the ODs were terrible that year. I think overall, my placements might've been:

    Golden Waltz
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Punsulen & Swallow
    4. Anissina & Peizerat
    5. Lobacheva & Averbukh

    Argentine Tango
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Bourne & Kraatz
    4. Anissina & Peizerat
    5. Lobacheva & Averbukh

    OD
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Anissina & Peizerat
    4. Lobacheva & Averbukh
    5. Punsulen & Swallow

    FD
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Anissina & Peizerat
    3. Punsulen & Swallow
    4. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    5. not sure, perhaps Drobiazko & Vanagas as I could not stand the FD's of Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, Bourne & Kraatz, and Lobacheva & Averbukh (thought they were all terrible)

  14. #374
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    I might have had B&K 2nd in the Argentine Tango. As overrated as they are they did do an excellent dance and I had some problems with K&O's, way too far apart throughout, and on very inside edges on the crossrolls in both patterns. I think I would have B&K higher in the technical score, but K&O higher in the presentation score that dance, so not sure which would come ahead.

    I see by your placings A&P would have won the silver overall ahead of K&O though due to the FD.

    Where do you think Moniotte & Lavanchy belonged. I know some potrayed them like they were hard done by politics but I think they were just well past their primes and also clearly not ready for the event. I dont even think their 11th was that out of line. I doubt I would have placed them higher than 9th in any dance (maybe 8th in the OD ahead of B&K's horrible dance).

  15. #375
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    I disagree. For me (and for many casual fans I know) G&P brought excitement back into ice dance. People tuned in just to watch them.
    I'm not sure I get what you mean by the expression "bringing back". I think the late 1980s and the early 1990s were great for ice dancing. Such fascinating pairs as K/P or D/D competed at that time. So why did G/P need to bring the excitement back?

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I might have had B&K 2nd in the Argentine Tango. As overrated as they are they did do an excellent dance and I had some problems with K&O's, way too far apart throughout, and on very inside edges on the crossrolls in both patterns. I think I would have B&K higher in the technical score, but K&O higher in the presentation score that dance, so not sure which would come ahead.

    I see by your placings A&P would have won the silver overall ahead of K&O though due to the FD.

    Where do you think Moniotte & Lavanchy belonged. I know some potrayed them like they were hard done by politics but I think they were just well past their primes and also clearly not ready for the event. I dont even think their 11th was that out of line. I doubt I would have placed them higher than 9th in any dance (maybe 8th in the OD ahead of B&K's horrible dance).
    Yeah, I can see a case being made for B&K to be ahead of K&O in the argentine tango. I still can't believe Tracy Wilson thought K&O had the best dance that segment of the competition. Don't know what the hell she was smoking.

    As for Moniotte & Lavanchy, they were well past their primes like you noted. Like you, I don't think 11th was completely out of line for them.

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Don't know what the hell she was smoking.
    She was smoking her G&P hateorade. She also seemed to start this annoying habit in 1996 she always had one team she had to worship beyond all sense of logic. From 96-99 it was K&O. After K&P were gone she chose A&P from 2000-2002 (they were the best team clearly those years but the worship was still over the top, and she showed herself a bit hypocritical gushing over some of the same things she ripped apart when they were her beloved k&O's rivals from 96-99), and from 2003-2007 it became Denkova & Stayviski (I do think they were probably the best team in the world that period and often undermarked, but still the worship was over the top). The last 6 years of course it has been Virtue & Moir, except when she is on U.S TV during the period D&W were winning regularly.

    I remember her pointing out how far apart K&O were, but she still passed over it like in the big picture it was nothing which is not accurate when you are so far apart the whole dance. When A&P had a stumble in their 2nd CD in SLC she again passed it off like it was nothing. I agreed with them winning that dance even with that, but it was clearly not nothing. Granted the ultra annoying drama addicted douche Tom Hammond was digging for any controversy over A&P winning, so she had to almost go overboard in her praise of them to keep Tom and the drama obsessed NBC team at bay, and from pulling another Sale & Pelletier (which you know they were itching to do with all the French based rumors).

    Still a very good and technically knowledgable commentator overall when she can get out of her own way. Atleast she was apt at pointing out B&K's flaws and why they were having a hard time climbing out of 3rd or 4th in the world, which many other Canadians were either scared or blind to ever do.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    She was smoking her G&P hateorade. She also seemed to start this annoying habit in 1996 she always had one team she had to worship beyond all sense of logic. From 96-99 it was K&O. After K&P were gone she chose A&P from 2000-2002 (they were the best team clearly those years but the worship was still over the top, and she showed herself a bit hypocritical gushing over some of the same things she ripped apart when they were her beloved k&O's rivals from 96-99), and from 2003-2007 it became Denkova & Stayviski (I do think they were probably the best team in the world that period and often undermarked, but still the worship was over the top). The last 6 years of course it has been Virtue & Moir, except when she is on U.S TV during the period D&W were winning regularly.

    I remember her pointing out how far apart K&O were, but she still passed over it like in the big picture it was nothing which is not accurate when you are so far apart the whole dance. When A&P had a stumble in their 2nd CD in SLC she again passed it off like it was nothing. I agreed with them winning that dance even with that, but it was clearly not nothing. Granted the ultra annoying drama addicted douche Tom Hammond was digging for any controversy over A&P winning, so she had to almost go overboard in her praise of them to keep Tom and the drama obsessed NBC team at bay, and from pulling another Sale & Pelletier (which you know they were itching to do with all the French based rumors).

    Still a very good and technically knowledgable commentator overall when she can get out of her own way. Atleast she was apt at pointing out B&K's flaws and why they were having a hard time climbing out of 3rd or 4th in the world, which many other Canadians were either scared or blind to ever do.
    Yeah Tracy's commentating can be very questionable. But concerning your last point, have you ever seen Judy Blumberg's commentary on Bourne & Kraatz and Anissina & Peizerat's ODs at the 1998 Worlds? She absolutely tore B&K apart for their lack of content while deservedly praising A&P's brilliant OD. I kept thinking 'yes, finally a commentator who will call them out on their lack of content.' I remember being super-annoyed when the other commentators kept talking about a 'conspiracy' after the OD finished even though Judy very bluntly pointed out what was wrong with B&K's programs and their skating.

  19. #379
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    Yes Judy did an excellent job. She did praise B&K's good points too but called the construction of the program baffling at best. I think Dubova while an excellent technical coach, was herself jaded and blinded by bitterness after some dissapointments, and bought too much into the silly NA "bloc judging otherwise B&K would be dominating and unbeatable" false hype and didnt even sit back and objecitvely analyze what she was working on with them, and correcting their weaknesses. She did do a good job adding more footwork to their routines, and making them less just the hydro blade kids. Even though I didnt agree with their 96 world bronze the improvement in their programs from the grand prix final only a month earlier which made that medal possible was astonishing and does show her expertise as a dance coach. However she also bought into the hype on them too much, and seemed blinded to what their true abilities were, and what they still needed to work on.

    While I loved Riverdance when it first came out, and still do in many ways, it also was a bad program for them in many ways as it showed all their worst weaknesses. So much side by side skating, the few moments in that dance they were even hand to hand rather than not even that were their hardest dance holds off the dance, and that is what is most teams even ones at the bottom the easiest. Shae Lynn's awful posture, especialy in the slow part. Their unision problems, although at the 98 worlds FD they did have their best ever performance to it and had their unision better than I ever saw it (although I still agreed with their 3rd place in that dance). It shows she had bought into the hype and was not even realistic in assessing them anymore. She probably was immune to putting out a dance that showcased their biggest weaknesses, as she deluded herself into thinking they were the perfect team who didnt have any.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I disagree. For me (and for many casual fans I know) G&P brought excitement back into ice dance. People tuned in just to watch them.
    Well, we all have our own tastes. But I found G&P's dancing to be rather clumsy and herky-jerky. In Lillehammer, they didn't have nearly the maturity or polish of T&D or U&Z IMO. The main thing they had was speed.

    Of course, a lot of people think Mariah Carey is the greatest too, but I've always had trouble understanding her appeal. To me, she has about as much personality, warmth, and charisma as a piece of cardboard.

    Their "love-hate" chemistry was electrifying and they pushed ice dance to a new level.
    If you like that kind of thing, then yes, I could see that. And I agree that, technically at least, they pushed ice dance to a new level.

    After they retired, I couldn't bring myself to watch ice dance for many years. Anissina & Peizerat and Navka & Kostomarov were so ordinary, boring and uneventful (and of course less gifted) in comparison to G&P. I still miss Pasha's persona now, although I think ice dance has a little bit more drama this season
    Yes, most fans don't consider those teams to be among the greatest in history.

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