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  1. #321
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    The fact that judges could do whatever they wanted disregarding the rules, made the mockery of the 6.0 system. It's not surprising it was changed eventually.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    The fact that judges could do whatever they wanted disregarding the rules, made the mockery of the 6.0 system. It's not surprising it was changed eventually.
    They still can do whatever they want. Have you watched skating the last 3 years. The judging isnt improved, if anything it is even worse now. The journey from Chan's 4 or 5 mistake victories to Sotnikova SkateGate, and V&T's slew of 10s for interpretation and performance for Jesus Chris Superstar in between. They have even more marks to play around with, and even more possible outs to justify whatever they want to do.

    BTW, just curious are you British?

  3. #323
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    BTW, just curious are you British?
    .

    No, I'm not and have never had anything to do with UK apart from visiting it a few times during holidays.

    I also don't think that the current system is perfect. I'm sure that some of the verdicts are questionable and changes are needed. And I don't enjoy ice dancing inder the current system as I used to. But I believe the system isn't worse that the previous one and despite all imperfections it is fairer.

  4. #324
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    Going to agree with post #321 and throw a bit more memory lane hyperbole into the thread. Torvill & Dean should not have been anywhere near the Russians in the compulsory dances. The judges held them up; the British judge even had them first. It's not surprising, then, that regardless of the various merits of the free dances, the panel would only award them bronze.

  5. #325

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    OK, this is what Tracy Wilson had to say:

    "Separations are very clear. You're only allowed to separate 5 times, and for a maximum of 5 seconds."

    So, was Tracy Wilson wrong or what? Did the rulebook say 5 seconds or 10 seconds??? And did any of the other couples separate for more than 5 seconds? Apparently G&P separated for more than 5 seconds three times.

    If there was only one deduction, and merely for 0.1, then I can completely understand what you're saying. The question is what the actual deduction should have been. Could someone please provide us with a quote from the rulebook--or something similar?
    Specific rules tended to change every 2 years at the ISU congress, as is still the case.

    IIRC, the rules at the time allowed a certain number of separations less than 5 seconds, and one separation up to 10 seconds that either must be or must not be connected to stop in the middle or at the beginning/end of the program. I don't remember the details.

    We'd have to try to find a copy of the dance rules for 1993-94 to verify.

    Wilson's comments in the broadcast didn't cover the sum total of all the separation rules at the time. So relying on them to search for deductions would be an inaccurate approach.

    As would relying on a rulebook from 1992 or 1996 or 2014.

  6. #326
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    Mrs. Parry even had T&D 1st in the Starlight Waltz, their weaker of the two compulsory dances. No other judge had them higher than 3rd, and three judges even had the guts to put them 4th behind the Finns in that particular dance. She should be ashamed of her biased judging at those Games. She was worse than the Russian judge. She got a remprimand after the dance event for biased nationalistic scoring.

    The worst flag waving judging I saw though was Bill McLaughlin at the 97 worlds. He placed Bourne & Kraatz first in every dance at those worlds. Even their original dance where most judges had them 4th or 5th (despite that they came 3rd barely). He was the only judge to place B&K 1st in any of the dances, and in 2 of the 4 dances, their 2nd compulsory dance and original dance, no other judge had them higher than 3rd. I cant believe he only got a warning and not a suspension.

    Wilson always hated G&P so she is not an unbiased source. I am not surprised she would be looking for any explanation for them not deserving the gold medal, especialy with her good buddy Maya Usova sitting in the gold medal spot at that moment. Rumor is she hated them as she is a good friend of Maya Usova and was even a bridesmaid at Maya's wedding, so Pasha'a affair with Zhulin and the subsequent divorce upset her. G&P beating U&Z for the 94 Olympic Gold probably really upset her, and explains the ever increasing hate filled speeches on them in her commentary. That she was a huge fan of all of Bourne & Kraatz, Krylova & Ovsiannikov, and Anissina & Peizerat who G&P kept dominating and beating (deservedly), just added more fuel to her fire down the line.
    Last edited by fracturedleg; 04-17-2014 at 05:42 PM.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    Wilson always hated G&P so she is not an unbiased source. I am not surprised she would be looking for any explanation for them not deserving the gold medal, especialy with her good buddy Maya Usova sitting in the gold medal spot at that moment. Rumor is she hated them as she is a good friend of Maya Usova and was even a bridesmaid at Maya's wedding, so Pasha'a affair with Zhulin and the subsequent divorce upset her. G&P beating U&Z for the 94 Olympic Gold probably really upset her, and explains the ever increasing hate filled speeches on them in her commentary. That she was a huge fan of all of Bourne & Kraatz, Krylova & Ovsiannikov, and Anissina & Peizerat who G&P kept dominating and beating (deservedly), just added more fuel to her fire down the line.
    Ugh I remember her comments on G&P's legendary Libertango OD, which pretty much everyone agrees is a masterpiece. She said something like "they never touched the audience" or some similar nonsense. I also remember her trying to prove that B&K were so much better than G&P, which makes any statements by her about G&P completely ridiculous and irrelevant.

  8. #328
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    I normally think of Tracy Wilson has an excellent ice dance commentator but her commentary on Grishuk & Platov should be looked on as a major source of shame for her.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I normally think of Tracy Wilson has an excellent ice dance commentator but her commentary on Grishuk & Platov should be looked on as a major source of shame for her.
    It had to be motives unrelated to their skating too, since she is far too technically knowledgable to really believe the crap she spoke on them. Even if she didnt like their style of skating, she knows full well the objective merits that go into giving a score, and is able to do that for anyone else (eg- Slutskaya whose skating she didnt like but knew her scores were justifiable and said so).

  10. #330
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    As for T&D I think they were upset they werent treated like G&G in their comeback. G&G were treated like the class of the field and certain to win unless she they fell a couple times anyway. T&D are considered the best dance team ever generally speaking, just as G&G are, so they probably felt they deserved the same treatment as G&G got but werent close to it in the end.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishcream View Post
    As for T&D I think they were upset they werent treated like G&G in their comeback. G&G were treated like the class of the field and certain to win unless she they fell a couple times anyway. T&D are considered the best dance team ever generally speaking, just as G&G are, so they probably felt they deserved the same treatment as G&G got but werent close to it in the end.
    The difference of course being that G&G were still head and shoulders above everyone else bar M&D and were in their 20's looking and skating better than ever. Whereas T&D were in their mid 30's looking and skating OK-ish but by no means in a league of their own.

    I agree though that T&D expected a red carpet to be rolled out for them and be handed the OGM before they even skated.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Specific rules tended to change every 2 years at the ISU congress, as is still the case.
    Thanks for the info.

    IIRC, the rules at the time allowed a certain number of separations less than 5 seconds, and one separation up to 10 seconds that either must be or must not be connected to stop in the middle or at the beginning/end of the program. I don't remember the details.

    We'd have to try to find a copy of the dance rules for 1993-94 to verify.
    Yes, it seems that's what we need here.

    Wilson's comments in the broadcast didn't cover the sum total of all the separation rules at the time. So relying on them to search for deductions would be an inaccurate approach.
    That's helpful to know. Yes, we don't want to jump to conclusions until we can see things in writing. But if her marks were inaccurate, that would be pretty lame. I mean, if you're going to appear on TV to criticize something, you should make extra sure you know what you're talking about.

    As would relying on a rulebook from 1992 or 1996 or 2014.
    True.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I also remember her trying to prove that B&K were so much better than G&P, which makes any statements by her about G&P completely ridiculous and irrelevant.
    Not necessarily--you really have to weigh each individual statement. For instance, if she said, "Evgeni has brown hair," would that automatically make it false? OTOH, it does make sense to scrutinize anything she might have to say about them.

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I agree though that T&D expected a red carpet to be rolled out for them and be handed the OGM before they even skated.
    That's why it's hard for me to get all choked up about the fact they didn't win. They already had an OGM. I sympathize a bit more with U&Z, who were waiting their turn just like all the other top couples had in the past.

    Even if an athlete/team who truly deserves a second OGM (in a later Games) is scored a bit unfairly and ends up with silver, is it really a tragedy, especially if they've made a killing up to that point? Are they really going to end up homeless and shivering on the streets in the winter?

    Here's something to think about: Would U&Z have stayed on top of the dance world if the Olympics hadn't changed schedules?
    Last edited by neptune; 04-18-2014 at 05:19 AM.

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune
    Here's something to think about: Would U&Z have stayed on top of the dance world if the Olympics hadn't changed schedules?
    I don't think so. G&P only got better with age and although i didn't like their FD in 1996, if they did their 1997 Libertango and The Feeling Begins - there would have been no contest. G&P were simply the better team.

  16. #336
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    I think we should distinguish Tracy Wilson's subjective statements from those objective ones. When she says "they never touched the audience" or "they don't understand the music" well, etc. is not the same as when she talks about the rules.
    That's why it's hard for me to get all choked up about the fact they didn't win. They already had an OGM. I sympathize a bit more with U&Z, who were waiting their turn just like all the other top couples had in the past.
    I was always sorry for U&Z. Especially that I don't think their FD in 1994 was that bad. Well, it wasn’t a masterpiece, it was worse than their routines from previous years but personally I preferred it to G/P sloppy rock and roll routine. And their OD was much more better than G/P OD.
    Even if an athlete/team who truly deserves a second OGM (in a later Games) is scored a bit unfairly and ends up with silver, is it really a tragedy, especially if they've made a killing up to that point? Are they really going to end up homeless and shivering on the streets in the winter?
    Maybe it’s not a tragedy, especially from the perspective of viewers. But if athlete/team truly deserves a second OGM, it’s never ok if they didn’t get it because of unfair judging.
    Here's something to think about: Would U&Z have stayed on top of the dance world if the Olympics hadn't changed schedules?
    Probably it would have been even more difficult for them in 1996 than in 1994. Not only because G/P were better, but also taking into account the strained relationship between Usova and Zhulin. As someone has already mentioned in this thread that probably even already in 1994 they didn’t train as much as they should have.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    Maybe it’s not a tragedy, especially from the perspective of viewers. But if athlete/team truly deserves a second OGM, it’s never ok if they didn’t get it because of unfair judging.
    ..but it will always be a matter of debate/taste/like and dislike and also of morality what "deserve" means. This goes for all medals, all competitions. The judges have their opinion (more or less based on rules and on knowledge, but also on their personal preferences), and viewers have their points of view, too.
    Stating that a skater/team deserved a (second) OGM and saying why one thinks so is reasonable, but it will inevitably lead to the conclusion that the actual winner of the OGM is considered undeserving, and that's something I generally try to avoid.
    This is why I'm so utterly disgusted by some T/D-fans who can't stop raving on YT that G/P should give "back" the OGMs they had "stolen" from T/D.

  18. #338
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    I don't know why people often try to discredit G&P's achievements and i actually believe Tracey Wilson and Chris Dean have a lot to answer for when it comes to G&P slander. G&P were a technically superior team who did more difficult tricks at higher speed. It's not surprising they won as many competitions as they did. In 1994 T&D did not deserve to win. Their compulsories were terrible and at the Europeans actually received a 5.2 from a judge. They deserved similar marks for their waltz at the Olympics. You don't hear Katti Witt demanding an OGM for her 1994 performance just because she is a legend of the sport. T&D 10 years older were not on the same level as G&P.

  19. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    That's helpful to know. Yes, we don't want to jump to conclusions until we can see things in writing. But if her marks were inaccurate, that would be pretty lame. I mean, if you're going to appear on TV to criticize something, you should make extra sure you know what you're talking about.
    I don't remember exactly what Wilson had to say. I don't remember her giving marks.

    I'm not saying that her comments about deductions and rules were inaccurate -- just that she didn't read the whole rulebook to the audience. So possibly any fans who took what she did say, unaware of the rest of the rules, might have extrapolated inappropriate and concluded that three deductions were warranted when really it was only one.

  20. #340
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    I don't know why people often try to discredit G&P's achievements and i actually believe Tracey Wilson and Chris Dean have a lot to answer for when it comes to G&P slander.
    My opinions about G/P have nothing to do with Wilson or Dean. Actually, only recently, have I seen some YT clips where Wilson commentated. In 1994 when I watched Olympics in front of TV in my country I had no idea what some commentators in Canada, USA, UK or wherever had to say about the competition. I also didn't have any access to postolympics interviews. So the fact that I found both OD and FD not deserving gold, was just based on my observation. I'm not going to argue that others have to agree with my opinions. What Shyjosie has written (
    but it will always be a matter of debate/taste/like and dislike and also of morality what "deserve" means. This goes for all medals, all competitions. The judges have their opinion (more or less based on rules and on knowledge, but also on their personal preferences), and viewers have their points of view, too.
    ) is probably right.
    But Xela M, you also keep repeating that G/P were so superiour. If it were so obvious, there weren't be so much talking even 20 years after Lillehammer. So you have the right to think so, but you should realise that other people have the right to think otherwise and it doesn't mean they are less right than you are. You keep repeating that T/D and their fans wanted gold for T/D just because they were legends. Do you really believe that that was the reason why so many people were disappointed with the result? Don’t you think that maybe people really found their performance better than G/P's? Do you really think that FS fans want their favourites to achieve medals just for their past achievements and not for what they show on the ice?
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-18-2014 at 01:29 PM.

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