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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    I cant believe some are writing the Shibs off. They are 19 and 21. That is incredibly young. They could easily be around for 3 more Olympics, another 12 years maybe even. They still could become one of the best ever, anything is still possible. At the least there could be many more world medals and an Olympic medal in their future.
    I agree, it's certainly not too late for them. They have terrific skating skills, all they need are good programs.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I agree, it's certainly not too late for them. They have terrific skating skills, all they need are good programs.
    I hope Scali takes them over. I think he could do wonders with them.

  3. #23
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    Shibutanis are done. They are never winning another world medal. As for being only 19, who cares. Lots of skater are done at 19. Rosalynn Sumners never won another world medal after 19 since after she lost the Olympic gold to Witt it was clear she was losing ground technically to the younger girls like Witt and Chin, and those to come. Sasha Cohen won her last ever world medal at 20 since technically she too was blown past by Asada, Kim, Ando, and the younger girls. The Shibutanis are going through the same thing as Sumners and Cohen, they have been passed technically and worse than Sumners and Cohen who atleast specialized in artistry, artistically they were never much, so what do they have.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripingroar37 View Post
    so what do they have.
    I don't know…a great support system, great PR from the Olympics thanks to their social media/video skills, drive and determination to continue, great skating skills, strong dance basics, potential, a healthy outlook on life...
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't know…a great support system, great PR from the Olympics thanks to their social media/video skills, drive and determination to continue, great skating skills, strong dance basics, potential, a healthy outlook on life...
    Good for them. I am sure they have a great life ahead and they had a fine skating career. However no more world medals. Skateboy says they are certain to win more medals since they are 19, but I guess he never heard of Sumners and Cohen who at 19 and 20 were done winning medals at worlds and Olympics.

  6. #26

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    I'd agree if ice dance included jumps and the Shibs had trouble completing the number of jumps needed to be competitive. However, the Shibs have shown all season that they were capable of attaining the highest levels on their elements and have received higher TES than the dance teams that placed higher than them overall. I don't think they've peaked yet, and that's the difference. However, maybe they have reached the highest level that they are capable of, but I think that remains to be seen.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I'd agree if ice dance included jumps and the Shibs had trouble completing the number of jumps needed to be competitive. However, the Shibs have shown all season that they were capable of attaining the highest levels on their elements and have received higher TES than the dance teams that placed higher than them overall. I don't think they've peaked yet, and that's the difference. However, maybe they have reached the highest level that they are capable of, but I think that remains to be seen.
    I dont recall them beating the teams who beat them in TES at the Olympics and worlds, but I will check those again. Ice dance results are mostly determined by PCS anyway though, and here they fall short constantly.

  8. #28

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    Well, I said they beat teams that have beat them overall on TES. To me, that shows they still have the technical goods to be competitive rather than being passed up technically as what happened with Sumners and Cohen. Btw, wasn't Cohen a gold medal contender in Torino when she was 21? Shizuka won Worlds (after blossoming late) at 22 and won the Olympics at 24.

    Anyway, it's not the perfect analogy as ice dance teams have shown to be successful with skaters who are in the mid-to-late 20s. It depends on whether you think they have potential to grow or not. A lot of people don't, but I want to wait and see what they can do in the new few seasons before I make that call.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #29
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    Of course many are contenders past 22 (we should actually use his age, as the older in the team is what matters most). However many arent. That is my only point. Skateboy seems to think just since the Shibutanis are 19 and 22 they are certain to be contenders and have many more chances. However Sumners, Cohen, and many others were done winning medals at that age, since their skills were surpassed by others. The same might have already happened to the Shibs. I didnt say it happens automatically to everyone, of course some are contenders to a much older age, but it also happens often many are done as contenders by that age or younger too.

    Anywhere here are the scores from the 2014 Olympics and 2014 worlds:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_...93_Ice_dancing

    As you can see the Shibs are 6th in TES in the OD, 10th in TES in the FD, and 9th in TED overall. Pretty much in line with their final finishes. 2 of the teams they beat in TES in the OD had a serious mistake. They themselves had a serious mistake in the FD but as you can see by the gap in scores would still only be 9th in TES in that phase if they had not.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/SEG007.HTM
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/SEG008.HTM

    At worlds they are 6th in TES in both phases, 6th in both phases, and 6th overall. Did beat 2 teams ahead of them in TES in the SD but one who gave up 7 points not even doing the twizzle sequence and are now split/dunzo anyway, and were beat by 2 lower down teams in TES instead. In the FD all 5 teams who beat them also beat them on TES.

    Anyway final results in ice dance are mostly determined by PCS, but as it turns out their TES doesnt gain them much or any ground anymore.

  10. #30

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    Right, but they are still competitive if they hit the levels (and it seems every team has some issues being consistent). I would say that's a far cry from being passed over by technically superior teams. I think if we have 2-3 more seasons of them stagnating, then you'd be right. I'm just taking a position that we have to wait and see if the Shibs can make some improvements before I'm ready to stick a fork in them. Anyway, even using his age, they together (averaging the ages) are still a very young team compared to their competition.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #31
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    If you look at the ages of those who placed above them at the Olympics: 27/26, 24/26, 19/22, 30/33, 24/24, 27/28, 25/27, 21/25; then I think age can be ruled out as a factor for the Shibutani's. None of the people who placed above them are younger then them, and one team was the same age. Ice dance is not singles skating, which is where the age comments seem to come from. The Shibs age is not old in ice dancing- in fact, their world medal they were downright prodigies (and in a bit of a lucky situation for them)

    Actually now that the Shibs are older I hope to see their skating mature a bit. Maybe they will win medals, maybe they won't.
    It will be interesting to see how they stack up with the retirements and splits that are taking place this season. And there are certainly new teams who want to take their spot.

  12. #32
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    I never said they were old or too old and that is why I didnt think they would win more medals. I dont think they will win more medals since they havent made any progress in awhile and I just dont see it happening. I only dismissed the idea they were too young to be done winning medals. Sumners and Cohen were not too young to be done winning medals. In their case it was because they were surpassed technically. In the Shibutanis it might be more artistically they cant compete, and technically they dont stand out like they used to. Either way it adds to the same thing in the end. We will see in 4 years if they have another world medal. I bet not.

  13. #33
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    Except again you are comparing them to single skaters careers. It is common for single skaters to finish their careers young. It is common for ice dancers to gain momentum at this age. It's difficult to say what will happen to the Shibs now, but I think comparisions to Sumners and Cohen make no sense.

  14. #34
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    Shibs need work on their TES.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG008.HTM

    While they were 6th in TES in the SD portion, they were 14th in TES in the FD (ripingroar37, you are wrong, Shibs were 14th in TES in the FD, not 10th. They got beat by lower placed teams like Zlobina/Sitnikov, Zhiganshina/Gazsi, Hurtado/Diaz, and Guiggnard/Fabri in TES). In both segments they finished 9th and 10th overall respectively, for a 9th place finish.

    Worlds 2014: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/SEG007.HTM
    They were 6th in TES in the SD portion and finished 6th in that segment, thanks to I/K's zero credit twizzles. Shibs actually got lower TES than the two teams that placed below them, Z/G and S/Z.
    In the FD they were 6th in TES and finished 6th overall in the FD. But as you can see G/P got the same levels as them and almost tied them in GOE (only 0.08 difference in TES between the two).

    At Worlds 2013, in the SD they were 8th in TES and 8th in that segment. In the FD they were 9th in TES and 9th in that segment.
    Last edited by tourtiere; 04-19-2014 at 02:57 AM.

  15. #35
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    I think most concerning is Shibs PCS. All the teams placed higher than Shibs at Worlds and Olympics, other than Chock/Bates, all have PCS that are over a full point more than Shibs in every area (and that is with teams like W/P, C/L, P/B, B/S, I/K). That's a lot. Actually that's more than a lot.

  16. #36
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    I love the Shibs. Sometimes I get pissed at the judges scores for them, but then again I am not that technically knowledgable on ice dance, so maybe the scores are fair. I always try be objective regardless who I prefer or who my favorites are, but dance is the sport I feel least knowledgable on in a technical sense so is the hardest to do that. I just know watching the Shibutanis to my untrained eye, I find them being treated by harshly by judges ever since their 2011 worlds. Not saying they deserved any major podiums since then, definitely not, but often deserved higher scores and sometimes placements I felt.

  17. #37
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    They are certainly not old. They are still one of the youngest ice dance teams in the Top 10. However, over the past few seasons they have been overtaken by teams that they beat back in 2011 (W&P, B&S, I&K, P&B, C&L, etc.) They are also now getting beaten by their American teammates, Chock & Bates. And last a month a couple of newer teams closed in on them (S&Z, G&P). So they have been losing ground.

  18. #38
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    The good news for them is with the split of I&K they are now by far the youngest team in the top 10 again arent they?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The good news for them is with the split of I&K they are now by far the youngest team in the top 10 again arent they?
    Maia is only 19. But Alex turns 23 this week.

    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00011168.htm


    Piper & Paul are both only 22. Paul doesn't turn 23 until November, so Alex is half a year older, and Piper won't be 23 until next January.

    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00034084.htm


    So these two teams are close in their overall ages. The aggregate age of The Shibs is youngest, but Alex is older than both Piper & Paul. So it depends on how you look at it, I guess.


    3rd youngest is probably Alexandra & Mitchell at 22 & 24.

    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00012269.htm
    Last edited by The Observer; 04-20-2014 at 01:55 AM.

  20. #40
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    Thanks. Well it does seem like they are overall the youngest against with only the Canadian kids coming close. What are the overall ages of the 2 new russian teams should they pan out to be anything.

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