Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 55
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Could Butyrskaya have beaten Hughes for 2002 Olympic gold

    Everyone feels Irina or Michelle skating cleanly would have beaten Hughes for the 2002 OGM, even without a triple-triple. Cohen had she landed her triple lutz-triple toe probably would too. What about Maria. Had she skated cleanly could she have beaten Hughes for the gold. She lost the short program to Hughes on only a 5-4 split so I think it was possible. I dont know what jumps she had planned though.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Quadland
    Posts
    6,284
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3358
    No because she lacked then needed jumping asenal

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    555
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Her tight knees would have never permitted 2 triple triples under the duress of the Olympics

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    494
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    No, but she could have beaten Chen for bronze in 1998.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,176
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Everyone feels Irina or Michelle skating cleanly would have beaten Hughes for the 2002 OGM, even without a triple-triple. Cohen had she landed her triple lutz-triple toe probably would too. What about Maria. Had she skated cleanly could she have beaten Hughes for the gold. She lost the short program to Hughes on only a 5-4 split so I think it was possible. I dont know what jumps she had planned though.
    Although Bute was stiffer than usual that whole week, losing a short program to Hughes on a 5-4 was still bogus. Having said that, even if she was smoother, her 2002 programs were still very weak, so I don't know. Going clean and losing that NHK to Slute and then the Worlds bronze to Hughes the year before lost her all the momentum. It wasn't like she skated lights out to win Europeans. She was never going to be clean enough to contend for the Olympics and even if she does, was never going to score well again. Not against 3 US medal contenders on US soil. And RUS would be focusing all their energy on Slute.

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Turzynbaeva is the new Gedevanishvili
    Posts
    8,468
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Non. Bute was on her way to the glue factory (again )

    But she's definitely hotter than Hughes and that's what counts.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    No, even with a 3T half-loop 3S, and her beautiful 3Lz. She was way too stiff, and her LP was not her best program. And she had lost respect from judges in 2002.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,820
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    37756
    I don't know. I think she could have beaten Hughes with her 2000 Worlds SP and 2001 Worlds LP if Hughes had only done one 3/3 in SLC. But with Hughes upping her technical arsenal by doing two 3/3s, then I really think the only skaters who could have beaten a clean Hughes in 2002 with that performance was Slutskaya and Kwan. I know Cohen beat Hughes in the SP, but they were doing similar tech. content in that phase. In the LP, and even with a 3 LZ/3 Toe, I am not as sure that Cohen could have overtaken Hughes at that point in Cohen's career since she wasn't as strong of a skater as she became by 2006.

    Maria really regressed from Worlds 2001 to SLC 2002. She was way stiffer than usual, did not show off a good flow and run-of-blade, her lack of extension on her moves was much more egregious than it had been in the past, and her programs were really boring and proved to be really bad vehicles for her. Actually her LP was both boring and harmful on the ears. That music was AWFUL. I know Maria's strength by 2002 had become regal, pained mature Russian lady who is holding back deep-seeded angst that is boiling to get out, but she just can't let herself do it. However, her 2002 programs were like bad knock-offs of the much superior and much more convincing programs of her past. It was like she was trying way too hard to recapture the mood of "Otonal" and "17 Moments in Spring".
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maria really regressed from Worlds 2001 to SLC 2002. She was way stiffer than usual, did not show off a good flow and run-of-blade, her lack of extension on her moves was much more egregious than it had been, and her programs were really boring and proved to be really bad vehicles for her. Actually her LP was both boring and harmful on the ears. That music was AWFUL.
    ITA. That's a shame since her programs before 2000 were all nice and / or interesting.
    Didn't she choreograph her 2002 LP herself ? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,820
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    37756
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    ITA. That's a shame since her programs before 2000 were all nice and / or interesting.
    Didn't she choreograph her 2002 LP herself ? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.
    I really wouldn't be surprised if she had choreographed all of her post-1998 programs herself (with help from Elena Tchaikovskaya). They all really had signature and personal looks to them. Say what you will, but I thought her LPs, "Otonal" and "17 Moments in Spring", and her "Scene d'Amour" SP were really choreographically-interesting and seriously did not look like any other program out there. Only her "Swan Lake" failed to make any sort of impression on me. She even designed her own costumes. However, in the 2001-2002 season, I guess she ran out of tricks in her bag and probably could have used a really good outside choreographer/costume designer to at least consult her team on her routines and look. Sometimes, you really need someone on the outside to freshen things up.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,151
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maria really regressed from Worlds 2001 to SLC 2002. She was way stiffer than usual, did not show off a good flow and run-of-blade, her lack of extension on her moves was much more egregious than it had been in the past, and her programs were really boring and proved to be really bad vehicles for her. Actually her LP was both boring and harmful on the ears. That music was AWFUL. I know Maria's strength by 2002 had become regal, pained mature Russian lady who is holding back deep-seeded angst that is boiling to get out, but she just can't let herself do it. However, her 2002 programs were like bad knock-offs of the much superior and much more convincing programs of her past. It was like she was trying way too hard to recapture the mood of "Otonal" and "17 Moments in Spring".


    Agree with everything you wrote here.

    I really wish Maria had better programs because I feel that she had an outside chance for a medal.

    My dream would've been for her to do a blues or jazz short (ala 1996 and 1998) and a tango free, but neither materialized.

    Just look how confident she was here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3Y9CMDwK8

    Instead, we had horrible sleepy/screechy programs and a SP costume that was inspired by Spongebob Squarepants.

    And of course, her infamous nerves.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    48
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't know. I think she could have beaten Hughes with her 2000 Worlds SP and 2001 Worlds LP if Hughes had only done one 3/3 in SLC. But with Hughes upping her technical arsenal by doing two 3/3s, then I really think the only skaters who could have beaten a clean Hughes in 2002 with that performance was Slutskaya and Kwan. I know Cohen beat Hughes in the SP, but they were doing similar tech. content in that phase. In the LP, and even with a 3 LZ/3 Toe, I am not as sure that Cohen could have overtaken Hughes at that point in Cohen's career since she wasn't as strong of a skater as she became by 2006. ".
    Except that Sasha's only mistake in her Carmen program was the fall on the 3T in the 3L/3T combo, and she was in 3rd after the short program. Has she landed the combo cleanly the ordinals would have shuffled the deck once again. Also I feel Maria should have been above Hughes in the short. I do agree though Sasha wasn't as complete of a skater in 2002 as she was later. I would have enjoyed seeing her skate to Carmen when she was more mature.

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,434
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by NYScorp6 View Post
    Except that Sasha's only mistake in her Carmen program was the fall on the 3T in the 3L/3T combo, and she was in 3rd after the short program. Has she landed the combo cleanly the ordinals would have shuffled the deck once again. Also I feel Maria should have been above Hughes in the short. I do agree though Sasha wasn't as complete of a skater in 2002 as she was later. I would have enjoyed seeing her skate to Carmen when she was more mature.
    Speaking of Carmen, Maria had a spectacular Habanera show program that I always wanted her to turn into a competitive program. It was so much more fierce and mature than that underdeveloped program Cohen did.
    Last edited by fenway2; 04-10-2014 at 03:41 PM.

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Walking to Work
    Posts
    25,842
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    32560
    She was too stiff-legged and remote IMO.
    Last edited by Rex; 04-10-2014 at 03:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,980
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Am I the only person who liked Maria's SP in SLC?

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Walking to Work
    Posts
    25,842
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    32560
    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Am I the only person who liked Maria's SP in SLC?
    Most likely. I wouldn't try and start a club or anything...

    My memory is failing me...I will have to look at her skates at 99 Worlds to see what she did to beat Kwan...IIRC, Kwan was ill and was not at her best.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Dresden, Germany
    Posts
    490
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Am I the only person who liked Maria's SP in SLC?
    I liked it too. It wasn't her best SP, definitely below her spectacular scene d'amour - but overall not bad at all. And it featured probably her best combination spin.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    473
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't know. I think she could have beaten Hughes with her 2000 Worlds SP and 2001 Worlds LP if Hughes had only done one 3/3 in SLC. But with Hughes upping her technical arsenal by doing two 3/3s, then I really think the only skaters who could have beaten a clean Hughes in 2002 with that performance was Slutskaya and Kwan. I know Cohen beat Hughes in the SP, but they were doing similar tech. content in that phase. In the LP, and even with a 3 LZ/3 Toe, I am not as sure that Cohen could have overtaken Hughes at that point in Cohen's career since she wasn't as strong of a skater as she became by 2006.
    I'm more optimistic about Maria. Many people on FSU seem to think Sarah was always gifted in scores, I think it was clear that the judges did their best to make sure Sarah did not win a competition (because of her technical problems, insufficient second mark), and she would only win if the others glaringly faltered. That was case in SLC - she skated lights out in the long with two 3-3s, but not a single 5.9 was given. I know she skated early, but there was a lot of room left for Slutskaya, Cohen, and Kwan if they skated well. Sarah was probably gifted 4th in the short, but it was just the workings of the wonky ordinals rather than the judges overmarking her.

    Maria's 1999 SP and LP would have decidedly won the Olympics, in my opinion. The short would have placed no lower than fourth, and the long would have won.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,419
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    And she had lost respect from judges in 2002.
    I wanted to pick up on this idea, because I think I have noticed this before. At the beginning of a skaters senior career, marks movie up as he/she matures, until they reached a sort of baseline where the marks would be for the skater's prime years. But sometimes, there came a point where we started seeing that baseline drop.

    I always wondered if the skater had actually lost something or if the judges were just bored of that skater and found him/her less appealing or magical and, consciously or subconsciously, the marks reflected that.

    I agree this happened with Butriskaya. It happened to Weir between 2006 and 2010 and it seems to have already started with Abbott. If he does continue, I will be curious to see if it gets worse.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    3,423
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think the key events (re: Maria being a top-tier contender) had already happened the season prior:

    1) Losing to Sarah Hughes in the bronze head-to-head at the 2001 Grand Prix Final
    2) Being placed in arguably the more difficult qualifying round at 2001 Worlds, where she placed fourth (7th overall) and out of the top group for the short program.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •