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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    Glad you enjoyed the interview with Tim, oliviapug and skateboy! Tim was a breath of fresh air and you know what? In doing all of these interviews it's been compelling to see how many former skaters share his some of his sentiments.
    I find some of it a little curmuegonly, get off my lawn, things were better in my day though. The kids of today eh? "they have no understanding of mastery when it comes to skating correctly" in the same breath that he says he watched the Olympic men and ladies. Patrick Chan (amongst several others, but i use him as the prime example) definitely has mastery of his blade and knows exactly what mastery looks like. To belittle them all saying that doesn't help his arguments.

  2. #362

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    So, I have not read this thread. If someone wouldn't mind... Is there any real possibility that this could happen? I mean, it's ridiculous and I cannot see anyone on the figure skating side supporting this. So, is it a real concern? Was this just an offhand remark? A trial balloon? A ploy to get some other unpopular change instituted so that it will constitute a "win" for the FS side because at least they "saved" the short program?

  3. #363

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    Leigh466--someone else had this same question. Look back to p. 17 of the thread for a response. Yes, I think there's a real possibility this could happen. No one knows for sure, but Cinquanta generally gets what he wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I LOVED this interview with Tim Wood! My favorite part was the way he described IJS:

    When you award more points for grabbing your skate and putting it behind your head than doing a spin well, you've completely missed the point of what figure skating is about. We don't know ANYTHING about skating under this system. ... I'm not saying the kids aren't talented. I watched all of the Olympic men and women on TV and almost every single one did a triple TOE jump (toe-loop, flip or lutz) and the technique? I would scream at the top of the lungs if I saw a student of mine do that! They look at me like I'm the old guy but they have no understanding of what mastery is when it comes to skating correctly. They don't even know what mastery looks like.

    And he walked five miles uphill both ways to school in the snow each day.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  5. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I was just wondering... is there a chance that Speedy's proposals are actually going to be taken seriously at the Congress? So far I've been under the impression that these are just his ideas but there's no proof that anyone else with decision making power concurs.
    I think Hanna sums it up accurately (in her sentence bolded by me). There IS a formal proposal submitted by USFS to get rid of anonymous judging to be voted on at the ISU Congress (getting it passed is where collective effort and energy should be focused, IMO), but nothing about getting rid of the short program, as far as I am aware.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I think Hanna sums it up accurately (in her sentence bolded by me). There IS a formal proposal submitted by USFS to get rid of anonymous judging to be voted on at the ISU Congress (getting it passed is where collective effort and energy should be focused, IMO), but nothing about getting rid of the short program, as far as I am aware.
    Cinquanta's proposals are listed in a letter he sent to all ISU Council Members and ISU Technical Committee chairs. The language of the letter is rather opaque. Cinquanta starts off with the following paragraph:

    As you well know the 2014 Congress is approaching. After that there are only two years of this Council to reach the 2016 Congress, when many of us might conclude their sport career, at least the one with the ISU. I therefore feel committed to make a summary of proposals already expressed, but that I deem opportune to list once more in this message so that those interested can have the opportunity to give consideration in case they wish to do so. Allow me to state first of all that it deals with personal opinions.
    So, he begins by mentioning the 2014 ISU Congress. He doesn't demand specifically that the proposals be discussed at the Congress. However, the intention seems clear that they will be. Why else would he raise the issue? As ISU President, I assume he can introduce any topics he wants at the Congress. He does state that the proposals are "personal opinions." However, since he is President, my guess is that he expects his opinions to be taken pretty seriously. Note he also says the proposals have been "already expressed," which indicate he's been pushing for this behind the scenes already.

    He concludes with:

    Since it is not believable, even if the Council agreed with that, to complete the work related to the said proposals within June 2016, I kindly ask you to let me know your thoughts making however it clear that if the Council wishes to propose amendments it would be wise to do it now, since later there might be no time to properly propose changes.
    Again, it's a little unclear what he's saying here. Is it a veiled threat to speak up now, or his proposals will simply pass into law? Or is he saying that if anyone agrees with them, speak up now to help move them forward, otherwise the proposals will NOT happen? It's rather hard to tell.

    I think it's safe to assume that Cinquanta is submitting these proposals for discussion/consideration at the June Congress. Again, why else would he bring them up? To think otherwise strains credulity. And given the success he's had getting his past plans approved, there's every reason to be concerned this will get approved too. Hopefully it won't; hopefully the federations/council members will finally start standing up to Cinquanta. But they haven't so far. Not a single federation or official has even put out a statement of non-support for this proposal.

  7. #367

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    And he walked five miles uphill both ways to school in the snow each day.
    Do you have his qualifications or record?

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    As ISU President, I assume he can introduce any topics he wants at the Congress.
    I think formal proposals that get voted on at the Congress have to come from a federation or one of the Technical Committees. My guess is he has gone the "personal letter" route because he did not get the initial response he wanted from the technical committees.

    I can't honestly see why any of them would find this a good idea. I wonder if perhaps he floats the idea now with the hope of getting it voted on as a farewell gift in 2016. It will be a scary clue if he can get them as far as voting to support a study this time around.

    Cinquanta talks about saving money, but cutting the event essentially in half also reduces the product they have to sell and has to ultimately reduce what TV broadcasters are willing to pay to air these events. Is NBC going to be pleased to hear there will only be half as many nights of figure skating next Olympics? Skating may be less of a draw as a stand-alone event, but it is still, I think, the big draw in Winter Olympic viewing in the countries paying the most money for those broadcast rights.

    Surely there have to other ways of cutting costs without destroying your product. For starters they can eliminate the posh accommodations and VIP suites for ISU officials. I also never thought it made any sense for the ISU or host federations to pay costs for competitors. Obviously, they need to pay for the technical officials and judges, but, to me, each federation should be paying for their own coaches, skaters, etc. (There could, perhaps still be a small fund to defray costs for the smaller federations.)

    But really, the cost of a couple extra days at Worlds can't really be much more than the tip of the ISU budget. He proposes cutting the SP to save money, yet they plan to add a new Challenger Series events that will probably not pay for themselves at all. It just rings false. If they do need to cut expenses, they should perhaps start by looking at staffing levels at Headquarters, business practices, and administrative expenses. I suspect there is still a lot of overhead they could cut before they start cutting out the meat of the sport.

  9. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    Hopefully it won't; hopefully the federations/council members will finally start standing up to Cinquanta. But they haven't so far. Not a single federation or official has even put out a statement of non-support for this proposal.
    It is my understanding that the real work and discussions among the federations and ISU Congress delegates usually go on behind the scenes and are not revealed through public statements. I truly hope this (opposition through coalition building) is the case regarding Cinquanta's "proposals."
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    He proposes cutting the SP to save money, yet they plan to add a new Challenger Series events that will probably not pay for themselves at all.
    The Challenger Series events are funded entirely by the event organizers who have to apply to be in the series. The out-of-pocket cost to the ISU is 42K CHF split among the top three in each discipline, or a total of ~ 35K Euros/48K USD at today's intermediate rates. There also might be a programming cost to adjust the number of points for that series if the WS and WR lists are updated through an automated process.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  11. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    And he walked five miles uphill both ways to school in the snow each day.
    Come on now Fred, you know Tim's right about the spin positions. As for the rest, well... okay, it was a little "IN MY DAY!"
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Do you have his qualifications or record?
    No, I don't. Doesn't make it right for him to completely diss a whole generation of fantastic skaters though.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  13. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Do you have his qualifications or record?
    Do you really agree with Tim Wood - that not one single skater who skated in the Olympics has a mastery of figure skating basics?

    And really, if we all had to have the qualifications and accomplishments that skaters do in order to critique or discuss them, then I guess Sharpie can just turn out the lights and lock the doors on FSU

  14. #374
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    Really. The problem was never the system. It was the judges.

    Onto making audience understand:

    - I thought the progressive TES box would really help TV audience understand skating more, but somehow it wasn't shown at the Olympics.

    - And I wish they could at least show the individual PCS components instead of just the lumpsum PCS score.

    - The final score screen shown at KNC should say:
    [big font] TES: 50; [small font] Jumps: 35; Spins: 10, Sequences: 5, # of URs: 2, # of <s: 1, # of DQ elements: 0
    [big font] PCS: 50; [small font] SS: 8; TR: 8 etc
    [small font] deductions: -1 (reason: costume)
    [big font] total segment score: 100
    [big font] current segment placement: 2
    [big font] total competition score: 160
    [big big font] current competition placement: 1

  15. #375

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    USFS' outgoing president, Pat St. Peter, wrote the following in her "President's Report" for the Governing Council Meeting Book (published in the Members Only section of the site):
    Some ask why U.S. Figure Skating has not made a public statement against President Cinquanta’s “proposal” and criticize U.S. Figure Skating for its “silence.” We have not issued a public statement opposing President Cinquanta’s “proposal” because there is no proposal to eliminate the short program that has been submitted for vote at the next ISU Congress. We have confirmed with the ISU that what has been labeled as the ISU President’s “proposal” to eliminate the short program was a statement he made in an internal email he sent to all ISU officeholders to elicit their opinions on a variety of topics. The statements in the ISU President’s email were his personal opinions, and he was seeking comment on them from ISU officeholders. Please be assured that if a proposal to eliminate the short program had been submitted for the 2014 Congress agenda, U.S. Figure Skating would have strongly and vigorously advocated
    against it.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  16. #376

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    Obviously Pat St Peter has forgotten (or is conveniently choosing to forget) that the IJS started as just a "proposal" from Cinquanta as well. And he told the 2002 ISU congress that what he was proposing was a "project - I repeat, not rule, project". But here were are 12 years later with that system still in place.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics...00/1828380.stm
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/a...-project.shtml

    He is not to be trusted when he "proposes" something.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Do you really agree with Tim Wood - that not one single skater who skated in the Olympics has a mastery of figure skating basics?
    I think you are taking his comment out of context. He was talking about the benefits of training compulsory figures and building mastery of the very specific edges and turns involved in them. Many jump entrances, for example, build directly from a move that used to be learned in compulsory figures. Who knows, maybe Chan would have had a more reliable 3 axel if he had spent time training whatever figure that was.

    The comment in here that jumped out most to me was that Elvis Stojko (already a solid jumper) felt starting to train figures made everything else easier.

    Is it even possible to get patch ice anymore?

  18. #378
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    Kind of an odd skater to choose to pick on, since Patrick has a pretty solid foundation in figures.

    I'm not saying he could do Olympic level figures, but his coach required them of him, and as much as he seems to honor his coach after he passed, I can't imagine he quit practicing them.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Obviously Pat St Peter has forgotten (or is conveniently choosing to forget) that the IJS started as just a "proposal" from Cinquanta as well. And he told the 2002 ISU congress that what he was proposing was a "project - I repeat, not rule, project". But here were are 12 years later with that system still in place.
    It was voted on by the ISU council though. She is saying that there is nothing up for a vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Obviously Pat St Peter has forgotten (or is conveniently choosing to forget) that the IJS started as just a "proposal" from Cinquanta as well. And he told the 2002 ISU congress that what he was proposing was a "project - I repeat, not rule, project". But here were are 12 years later with that system still in place.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics...00/1828380.stm
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/a...-project.shtml

    He is not to be trusted when he "proposes" something.
    If you think that Cinquanta devised IJS on his lonesome, then well.....

    The introduction of the IJS had broad support among the ISU members. Abolishing the short program will not have anywhere near that level of support from the members.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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