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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    This is a sarcastic post, right? If they got rid of compulsory dances, there is no way a compulsory-style short program is going to be created. Even gymnastics dropped their compulsories for most levels.

    Only double jumps?
    No sarcasm whatsover. That's the way it should be. Actually skaters could concentrate on creating more interesting programmes and presentation as well as on showing their true skating skills/technique. I think John Curry would agree...

  2. #342
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    I'm excited to share an interview I did yesterday with a two time World Champion who said on the record that "Cinquanta needs to go" and went on to explain beautifully why. I should have it put together and up at http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard tonight most likely. I'll post the direct link once it's up!

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    No sarcasm whatsover. That's the way it should be. Actually skaters could concentrate on creating more interesting programmes and presentation as well as on showing their true skating skills/technique. I think John Curry would agree...
    Okay- since there was no sarcasm, I'll just state that I think that is a TERRIBLE idea. I do NOT want to see a double only program!
    I think if John Curry skated today we'd see beautiful artistry between quads.

    Neither one of us knows what Curry would agree with.

  4. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I think if John Curry skated today we'd see beautiful artistry between quads.
    We're lucky enough that we DO sometimes, even without John Curry, and it's a beautiful thing when that happens. There is beauty and excitement in beautifully executed, difficult technical elements as well as with presentation and "artistry," and when both are combined is when skating is at its most wonderful. (There is beauty in extremely well-executed, simple technical elements also, but it wouldn't be as exciting without much risk involved or opportunity for the skaters to separate themselves out much. It's interesting that some are proposing essentially "do-or-die," difficult-elements-allowed programs with no points for errors which would at least be exciting in that way, while others propose elements so simple that anyone who could attain the minimum scores for worlds would be able to execute them consistently.)

  5. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    I'm excited to share an interview I did yesterday with a two time World Champion who said on the record that "Cinquanta needs to go" and went on to explain beautifully why. I should have it put together and up at http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard tonight most likely. I'll post the direct link once it's up!
    You've definitely got me curious now! Looking forward to the interview. ;-)

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    How would you propose such rules to fit skaters today? How much would you restrict the difficulty of what top skaters could do?

    Under IJS, if most of the required elements were exactly the same and ones that all skaters could do then you probably wouldn't get much separation in points.under IJS. So the quality of the elements, including jump combination, might determine the ranking of the short program but now that the ranking itself doesn't matter (except in terms of seeding for the free skate) I think that would effectively diminish the importance of the short program in terms of its effect on the overall results.
    Good question.

    I'd probably reshape the short in such a way that elements were still required, but at today's standard of technical merit.

    For example, the solo jump could alternate each season between an edge jump and a pick jump.

    The jump combination would include one jump that is required, (ie a flip, a lutz, salchow, toe loop or a loop)

    Spins could be graded as they are now on levels of difficulty.

    Finally, what I would like to see is a themed short program similar to the short dance and utilizing the PCS. For example, one year could be classical, the next year latin, the year after that jazz, etc.

  7. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    I'm excited to share an interview I did yesterday with a two time World Champion who said on the record that "Cinquanta needs to go" and went on to explain beautifully why. I should have it put together and up at http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard tonight most likely. I'll post the direct link once it's up!
    Good for you! You are really making a name for yourself with these interviews! We are the beneficiaries.

    Thank you for your quality work!

  8. #348
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    Thanks Claire and isamelia! I have been passionate about skating for 20 years including when I skated and judged myself and I have a lot of love for the sport, the skaters and the history of skating... I'm lucky to be able to write about my passion and interviewing some of the cool people I've had chance to has been a blast! I should have this one up tonight with any luck.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    It's interesting that some are proposing essentially "do-or-die," difficult-elements-allowed programs with no points for errors which would at least be exciting in that way, while others propose elements so simple that anyone who could attain the minimum scores for worlds would be able to execute them consistently.)
    This "some person" has proposed that there should be requirements, and those who don't perform those requirements should receive no points for failed attempts, performing other elements in their place (ie, double instead of required single, a single in place of a combo), or not attempting them, but for about the umpteenth time, that is entirely separate from what elements are required or how difficult they are.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #350

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    This "some person" has proposed that there should be requirements, and those who don't perform those requirements should receive no points for failed attempts, performing other elements in their place (ie, double instead of required single, a single in place of a combo), or not attempting them, but for about the umpteenth time, that is entirely separate from what elements are required or how difficult they are.
    One doesn't imply the other, so they could be separate, but you specifically mentioned for example "falling on a quad" as being something that would get no points, which I thought very specifically implied that quads would be allowed (at least for men), so clearly you are thinking of something very different than a "double jumps only" kind of proposal where everyone would be required to do very similar content that is considered very simple for the skating level.

  11. #351

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    Ya know, there were A LOT of crappy SPs back in the good ol' days too. There are plenty of SP's I enjoy nowadays. I do not see the problem of SPs as they currently exist--except for SD's, which do suck. Let's go back to the OSP or OD.

    And I propose that for the 2017-2018 season, the required jump be the lutz. Oly Gold for D&R!

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    One doesn't imply the other, so they could be separate, but you specifically mentioned for example "falling on a quad" as being something that would get no points, which I thought very specifically implied that quads would be allowed (at least for men), so clearly you are thinking of something very different than a "double jumps only" kind of proposal where everyone would be required to do very similar content that is considered very simple for the skating level.
    I proposed that falling on an element would earn zero points. Falling on a quad is an example of the current requirements and one in which I addressed the possibility that under the current rules, skaters might choose less difficult content because the risk/reward ratio had changed, but I never proposed that falling on a quad would earn zero points, but falling on a 2Lo would not, or what the required content should be or that the element requirements have to remain the same as they are now.

    I wouldn't propose "double jumps only" content, because the timing is very different for these jumps than for triples and doubles, and I don't think elite skaters should be forced to train the timing on the same type jump with lesser rotations, nor do I think that a required jump should, by definition, be the solo jump, because that would cause some skaters each year to downgrade to doubles (in junior and senior ranks).
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I proposed that falling on an element would earn zero points.
    I have thought that for a while and also that -2 GOE should be a much larger deduction. These are elements that are essentially failed.

    I can see merits in lots of different approaches to the SP and don't know which would make most sense in the long run. On the one hand, I like the concept of the old compulsory dives and gymnastics compulsories. Even in the simplest moves, it really was possible even for the non-expert to spot the best ones. OTOH, effectively equalizing the difficulty would make GOE and PCS all-important and give the judges more than enough room for protocol marking, deal-making, and other shenanigans.

    I am dubious there is really a problem in skaters training double jumps, as men trained double and triple axels for years and, when the solo jump was a double, men and ladies trained double and triple lutzes or flips, and their jumps didn't seem to suffer for it. We often see skaters doing double jumps in warm-ups to this day and I suspect a lot of them do doubles in their home rinks as well. Still, I don't think I would suggest going back to double jumps. I do think it was a mistake to add the quad for the men and 3 axel for the ladies, though, as that separates too few skaters compared to what the SPs traditionally did.

    I also am dubious about designating one or more take-offs for the SP each year, as those choices can be manipulated to favor or disadvantage one skater or another. (I mean, the minute I heard that Yankee Polka and Finnstep had been chosen for the 13 and 14 season SDs, my first thought was "somebody on the Technical Committee wants Davis & White to win the Sochi OGM.") To me it would make more sense to chose a small number of classic moves and specify those for every year. Everybody knows they need to master at least a 2 axel; ladies know they have to master a layback spin and used to know they had to learn a decent spiral sequence. These were not things that came and went. They know from the beginning these are skills they have to work on all the time. To me, that is fairer. I kind of like the suggestion that between the first jump in the combo and the solo triple, one must be a toe-assisted takeoff and the other an edge takeoff.
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-08-2014 at 06:44 PM.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by isamelia View Post
    Good for you! You are really making a name for yourself with these interviews! We are the beneficiaries.

    Thank you for your quality work!
    As promised!

    An interview with 2X World Champion, Olympic Silver Medallist, U.S. Champion & North American Champion Tim Wood: http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard & http://skateguard1.blogspot.ca/2014/...-tim-wood.html

    Tim talks at length on the record about figure skating's Ottavio Cinquanta problem:

    "Cinquanta needs to go! He's single handledly done more damage to figure skating in the last twenty years than anyone else. He doesn't know what he's talking about..."

  15. #355

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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    I'd probably reshape the short in such a way that elements were still required, but at today's standard of technical merit.

    For example, the solo jump could alternate each season between an edge jump and a pick jump.

    The jump combination would include one jump that is required, (ie a flip, a lutz, salchow, toe loop or a loop)

    Spins could be graded as they are now on levels of difficulty.

    Finally, what I would like to see is a themed short program similar to the short dance and utilizing the PCS. For example, one year could be classical, the next year latin, the year after that jazz, etc.
    This is far too rigid for my taste. I wouldn't want everyone to be doing more of the exact same elements or care for a themed short program at all. It would take the creativity out of the SP and not allow skaters to utilize their strengths.

    IIRC a rule change had to be made to allow the 3A in the ladies' SP? Strict requirements prevent advancements like that.

    I think that the themed short program would be just like the CD for single skaters. I didn't mind the CD, especially when it was one I particularly enjoyed, like the waltz. But that was because there was also the OD. For me, replacing both with one SD has not been an improvement. You still get much the same music over and over again.

    It's true that themes can be broad, like the folk dance OD (which I absolutely loved). But I think dancers are more versatile in terms of adapting to different kinds of music than singles skaters are. I can't imagine a field of 30 singles all having to skate a folk dance, as that type of music wouldn't suit many of them.

  16. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    As promised!

    An interview with 2X World Champion, Olympic Silver Medallist, U.S. Champion & North American Champion Tim Wood: http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard & http://skateguard1.blogspot.ca/2014/...-tim-wood.html

    Tim talks at length on the record about figure skating's Ottavio Cinquanta problem:

    "Cinquanta needs to go! He's single handledly done more damage to figure skating in the last twenty years than anyone else. He doesn't know what he's talking about..."
    That was an incredibly interesting interview, thank you!

    O-

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post

    Under IJS, if most of the required elements were exactly the same and ones that all skaters could do then you probably wouldn't get much separation in points.under IJS. So the quality of the elements, including jump combination, might determine the ranking of the short program but now that the ranking itself doesn't matter (except in terms of seeding for the free skate) I think that would effectively diminish the importance of the short program in terms of its effect on the overall results.
    I think a lot of folks would like to see the importance of the SP diminished and get rid of those 6-8 point cushions. I would see smaller SP point spreads as a plus, especially when the skaters did the same elements.

    My biggest concern with this approach is that, errors apart, it will come down to GOE and PCS, making the judges too powerful. (We've seen how that works out.)

  18. #358

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    An interview with 2X World Champion, Olympic Silver Medallist, U.S. Champion & North American Champion Tim Wood: http://www.facebook.com/SkateGuard & http://skateguard1.blogspot.ca/2014/...-tim-wood.html

    Tim talks at length on the record about figure skating's Ottavio Cinquanta problem...

    I LOVED this interview with Tim Wood! My favorite part was the way he described IJS:

    When you award more points for grabbing your skate and putting it behind your head than doing a spin well, you've completely missed the point of what figure skating is about. We don't know ANYTHING about skating under this system. ... I'm not saying the kids aren't talented. I watched all of the Olympic men and women on TV and almost every single one did a triple TOE jump (toe-loop, flip or lutz) and the technique? I would scream at the top of the lungs if I saw a student of mine do that! They look at me like I'm the old guy but they have no understanding of what mastery is when it comes to skating correctly. They don't even know what mastery looks like.

    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  19. #359
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    It would be fun if they created a higher stakes short program where missing an element won some extra technical penalty, but there is no apparent way to do it. Perhaps a genius multidimensional mind can think of something, but this open ended system makes this improbable.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I LOVED this interview with Tim Wood! My favorite part was the way he described IJS:

    When you award more points for grabbing your skate and putting it behind your head than doing a spin well, you've completely missed the point of what figure skating is about. We don't know ANYTHING about skating under this system. ... I'm not saying the kids aren't talented. I watched all of the Olympic men and women on TV and almost every single one did a triple TOE jump (toe-loop, flip or lutz) and the technique? I would scream at the top of the lungs if I saw a student of mine do that! They look at me like I'm the old guy but they have no understanding of what mastery is when it comes to skating correctly. They don't even know what mastery looks like.

    Glad you enjoyed the interview with Tim, oliviapug and skateboy! Tim was a breath of fresh air and you know what? In doing all of these interviews it's been compelling to see how many former skaters share his some of his sentiments.

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