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  1. #381

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    If you think that Cinquanta devised IJS on his lonesome, then well.....
    Did I say that I thought that? No, and I said nothing about who "devised" the system. I said that Cinquanta was the one who presented the "project" to the ISU congress and assured them that it was "not a rule". Which apparently was not the case.

    The introduction of the IJS had broad support among the ISU members.
    The concept of a different judging system had broad support. But it's not so clear that the IJS itself was the concept that everyone agreed on. And given the history of deal-making and behind-the-scenes politicking in the ISU, I don't accept that the results of a vote at the ISU congress are truly representative of the majority of the members/federations' opinions.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It was voted on by the ISU council though. She is saying that there is nothing up for a vote.
    The ISU Council apparently thought they were voting on a "project", and then discovered that what they had voted on had been put into the ISU Constitution. Given that sorry history of overriding procedures, the absence of a proposal now is no guarantee that something isn't going to show up later on.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  3. #383
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    Why is it so difficult to get rid of Cinquanta? This man should have been forced to leave after the 2002 Olympics, and here he still is 12 years later.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Kind of an odd skater to choose to pick on, since Patrick has a pretty solid foundation in figures.

    I'm not saying he could do Olympic level figures, but his coach required them of him, and as much as he seems to honor his coach after he passed, I can't imagine he quit practicing them.

    Machida practices figures an hour everyday he trains----and it shows.

  5. #385
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    Any news from the council yet? I suppose the figure skating community dislike the idea, but if it's true that ISU is having financial problem, I am afraid the council could hesitate to refuse Speedy's ideas.

  6. #386

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    The dates of the 2014 ISU Congress are June 6-15 (or June 9-13) in Dublin, Ireland. There will be a thread here in GSD started for news and updates, I'm sure.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    The introduction of the IJS had broad support among the ISU members. Abolishing the short program will not have anywhere near that level of support from the members.
    I am hoping this is the case.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 04-26-2014 at 07:39 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    Why is it so difficult to get rid of Cinquanta? This man should have been forced to leave after the 2002 Olympics, and here he still is 12 years later.
    Because he would have to be removed by a vote, and there are enough people with voting privileges that actually like what he does that it never goes to a vote that he could lose. Of course, those people that like him and have voting privileges are the people he worked to get into those positions.

  8. #388

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    How much of this comes back to figure skating and speed skating sharing the same federation internationally? He's called the speedskater for a reason.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the snowboard/halfpipe folks who also have this problem of being in a federation that really isn't aligned with their interests.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    How much of this comes back to figure skating and speed skating sharing the same federation internationally? He's called the speedskater for a reason.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the snowboard/halfpipe folks who also have this problem of being in a federation that really isn't aligned with their interests.
    This is a good point. I think speed skating and figure skating should have been split into 2 federations a least a decade ago. The 2 spots have virtually nothing in common.

    And if Speedy is so good for speed skating, he could stay in that federation. Figure skating should have its own head who is knowledgable of this sport and the need to modernize it and address the current issues of the day.

  10. #390

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    This is a good point. I think speed skating and figure skating should have been split into 2 federations a least a decade ago. The 2 spots have virtually nothing in common.

    And if Speedy is so good for speed skating, he could stay in that federation. Figure skating should have its own head who is knowledgable of this sport and the need to modernize it and address the current issues of the day.
    Why would a person do that if they can have access to power and money from both? . . . And this is the crux of it . . .

  11. #391

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    What Cinquata has done during his "reign", to those opposed to his policies and actions, makes those who wish to "modernize/address current issues" afraid to speak out.
    One of the people that he "elevated" to prominence may replace him.

    If so, what improvement/change will follow?

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Kind of an odd skater to choose to pick on, since Patrick has a pretty solid foundation in figures.
    You need to read the thread before posting. Nobody was picking on Patrick Chan (and certainly not Wood, who never mentioned any current skater in particular). Chan was mentioned by someone up thread as a skater whose fundamentals were so wonderful that Wood must be full of BS to say current skaters could benefit from training figures.

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Any news from the council yet? I suppose the figure skating community dislike the idea, but if it's true that ISU is having financial problem, I am afraid the council could hesitate to refuse Speedy's ideas.
    If the ISU is in monetary trouble they need to look at the poor management that got them there before taking any more advice from those same poor managers.

    When an organization sees a downward slide in revenue, there are lots of questions they need to ask themselves. While cutting an unprofitable product line is sometimes part of the answer, a sporting federation is supposed to be growing its sport in terms of participation, exposure and revenue. Eliminating the SP would basically give the ISU less skating to bring in revenue, which IMO would only continue the downward spiral.

    What they need to do is look at why they have lost market share in formerly profitable markets and what they can do to improve their product. I think that needs to start by looking at the winning programs today and asking why they don't engage those audiences like they used to. A lot of folks think part of it is the lack of inherent meaning in the points that audiences see. To me, a bigger part of the decline is due to the choreography itself, driven by the scoring system.

    To give the technical committees some credit, they have tried to make changes to address that. Limiting repeated use of the same ugly "additional features" and getting rid of levels for choreographic sequences were both targeted at pulling back from the worst excesses inspired by the IJS. The problem is that they are really just nibbling around the edges. After 20 years, IMO it is time to take a complete re-look at the system and make some more major changes to it with the target of making the sport more audience friendly. Their focus since the introduction of IJS has been to make it more sporty, putting increasing point values on greater and greater levels of difficulty (without commensurate risk in terms of point loss for failing) until today's free skates are cluttered messes. For the first time since Peggy Flemming was competing, I did not bother watching Worlds this year. I recorded it, but could never quite get up the interest to sit thru it. (When I do watch though, I nearly always find the short programs more enjoyable, while the free skates seem to go on forever.)

    The other thing they need to do is take a look at their marketing. What used to give skating attention that is missing now? IMO a big part of that answer is pro skating. Letting mature skaters focus on performance instead of jumping in a more relaxed and entertaining atmosphere can draw audiences and attention to skating, which ultimately also increases interest in the ISU events. Instead of squelching any inclination of established skaters to step away from ISU competition, they need to provide (or at least encourage) an alternative for those skaters.
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-27-2014 at 07:34 PM.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    If the ISU is in monetary trouble they need to look at the poor management that got them there before taking any more advice from those same poor managers.

    When an organization sees a downward slide in revenue, there are lots of questions they need to ask themselves. While cutting an unprofitable product line is sometimes part of the answer, a sporting federation is supposed to be growing its sport in terms of participation, exposure and revenue. Eliminating the SP would basically give the ISU less skating to bring in revenue, which IMO would only continue the downward spiral.

    What they need to do is look at why they have lost market share in formerly profitable markets and what they can do to improve their product. I think that needs to start by looking at the winning programs today and asking why they don't engage those audiences like they used to. A lot of folks think part of it is the lack of inherent meaning in the points that audiences see. To me, a bigger part of the decline is due to the choreography itself, driven by the scoring system.

    To give the technical committees some credit, they have tried to make changes to address that. Limiting repeated use of the same ugly "additional features" and getting rid of levels for choreographic sequences were both targeted at pulling back from the worst excesses inspired by the IJS. The problem is that they are really just nibbling around the edges. After 20 years, IMO it is time to take a complete re-look at the system and make some more major changes to it with the target of making the sport more audience friendly. Their focus since the introduction of IJS has been to make it more sporty, putting increasing point values on greater and greater levels of difficulty (without commensurate risk in terms of point loss for failing) until today's free skates are cluttered messes. For the first time since Peggy Flemming was competing, I did not bother watching Worlds this year. I recorded it, but could never quite get up the interest to sit thru it. (When I do watch though, I nearly always find the short programs more enjoyable, while the free skates seem to go on forever.)

    The other thing they need to do is take a look at their marketing. What used to give skating attention that is missing now? IMO a big part of that answer is pro skating. Letting mature skaters focus on performance instead of jumping in a more relaxed and entertaining atmosphere can draw audiences and attention to skating, which ultimately also increases interest in the ISU events. Instead of squelching any inclination of established skaters to step away from ISU competition, they need to provide (or at least encourage) an alternative for those skaters.
    Very, very well said.

  15. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Eliminating the SP would basically give the ISU less skating to bring in revenue, which IMO would only continue the downward spiral.
    I am certainly not supporting a move to eliminate the short program at this time.

    I would ask anyone who does, what the reasoning is.

    If it's financial, is the idea to increase revenues from fans and sponsors? Fans at FSU seem to be nearly unanimously against such a move -- how about casual viewers?

    Is the idea to save on expenses of hosting competitions? If so, would there be sufficient savings to offset any attendant loss of revenue?

    That would include both traditionally fan/media-friendly events such as Grand Prix and ISU championships, and less friendly events such as junior events. How much, if anything, would the ISU save on running all events in the ISU calendar (assuming they would not simply pass along added costs, but not savings or added revenue, to host federations)? How much income from media and ticket sales would be lost? Would the savings outweigh the lost revenue?

    Would dropping the short program phase make skating more affordable for participants around the world -- including talented but not wealthy participants from the current strong federations? Would doing so therefore increase participation, bring new federations into the ISU as members and open up new markets for media sales? Would any income gained from new sources outweigh income lost from traditional sources such as fans and media from the current major skating countries?

    What if there is media interest in short programs for the top 10 or 20 skaters in the world, per discipline, but holding short programs at all other events costs more than it brings in at the elite events?

    Is the ISU's mission to make a profit, to serve its membership and the participant members of the ISU member federations, or to serve the interests of consumers?

    Who are the "customers" of the ISU -- casual viewers, fans, elite skaters, all senior and junior skaters, all federations serving skaters at all levels?

    I don't know what the financial impact would be in any of these areas. I think it's worth exploring. But certainly not taking a major step irrevocable step first before doing the research and then finding out afterward that the math doesn't work out.

  16. #396
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    The questions gkelly raises require a cost-revenue analysis across, all competitions for which the ISU is responsible + ISU operating costs + ISU administrative costs of choosing hosts for non-ISU competitions, overseeing them, collecting and verifying scores, etc., plus any issues of not getting bids to host competitions.

    Cost savings for the ISU would be:

    1. Venue costs for the SP/SD days for championships.
    2. Meals and accommodation for competitors, judges/tech panel, and ISU officials for SP/SD days at four championships/year and for non-ISU events for ISU officials.
    3. Host feed for SP/SD days.
    4. Administrative costs for SP/SD.
    5. Administrative costs for processing the Junior Worlds bids (since they would be combined with Worlds)
    6. Data input/management/stats for the SP/SD.
    7. Shuttles!

    Cost-savings for the non-ISU hosts (GP/GPF):
    1. Venue costs for the SP/SD days for championships.
    2. Meals and accommodation for competitors and judges/tech panel for SP/SD days.
    3. Volunteer coordination/swag for the SP/SD days.
    4. Shuttles!

    Jr. Worlds tend to take place in cities/venues at least half of the time that might cost more to get competitors to by plane, but are less expensive for meals and accommodations, ground transportation, and to hire generally smaller venues, and the ISU is paying in Swiss francs, which go a long way against the Estonian, Bulgarian, Croatian, etc. currencies, and from Europe they can get deals through European local carriers.

    It would be interesting to see the actual costs of holding the two championships in often financially disparate cities. Jr. Worlds has been held in Europe, from where the bulk of the competitors are from and at that level, where the bulk of those competitors train at junior level (aside from the Israelis), for 15 of the last 20 winning bits (including 2016 in Debrecen), and nine out of the last ten. I don't see how they would save by trucking 38 Junior Men (24 from Euro feds), 42 Junior Ladies (25 from Euro feds), 28 Dance teams (20 from Euro feds), and 15 Pairs teams (7 from Euro feds) to Shanghai, Boston, Helsinki/Sochi to cut costs, but I'm not privy to Cinquanta's books.

    I have no idea what they'd get from TV if they cut the SP. Sportsnet has been covering both programs, and CBC/TSN/CTV have at least selected programs. Eurosport has. I haven't heard anything about Chinese TV since they showed the entire host feed on the internet. Does Japanese TV? US TV likely wouldn't care. The Olympics contracts are set for 2018, but would the IOC have to renegotiate, given that there is less figure skating to be shown? Or would it impact IOC TV revenues going forward? (It would save the IOC some costs, between the SP/SD host feed and the operations costs of having to switch back as single venue between figure and speed skating.)

    It's hard to imagine that Cinquanta hasn't had some conversations with the IOC before making this proposal. Perhaps they support it. If they don't, and if the IOC would be hit badly in TV revenues, then I think the proposal would be off the table.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I would ask anyone who does, what the reasoning is.
    I would not because the proposal to radically change the sport came from somebody who has no right to make the proposal. He is a lame duck that wants to burn the house down. I am more suspicious of his motives than I am convinced his proposal is valid. The ISU should be audited to see if he is covering his tracks, and all the member federations, figure skating and speed skating, should want this audit.

  18. #398

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    Duplicate post.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 04-27-2014 at 10:45 PM.

  19. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think you are taking his comment out of context. He was talking about the benefits of training compulsory figures and building mastery of the very specific edges and turns involved in them. Many jump entrances, for example, build directly from a move that used to be learned in compulsory figures. Who knows, maybe Chan would have had a more reliable 3 axel if he had spent time training whatever figure that was.
    The comment in here that jumped out most to me was that Elvis Stojko (already a solid jumper) felt starting to train figures made everything else easier.

    Is it even possible to get patch ice anymore?
    No I read his comment completely in context. If his point was to push the benefits of training figures, he could have done so without insulting every single skater who competed in Sochi by claiming they do not have a mastery of the basic skills. I don't have any respect for someone who can't make their point without putting down an entire generation of skaters who had just finished competing at the biggest competition of the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    You need to read the thread before posting. Nobody was picking on Patrick Chan (and certainly not Wood, who never mentioned any current skater in particular). Chan was mentioned by someone up thread as a skater whose fundamentals were so wonderful that Wood must be full of BS to say current skaters could benefit from training figures.
    Actually I used Chan as an exmaple to show that Woods was talking BS when he said that no-one at the Olympis showed a mastery of the basics, tht was all.I never said anything about his claim that figures helps skaters - which I actually agree with. His rubbishing of every comeptitor at the Olympics was what was BS, in my opinion, then you seemed to be picking on Chan claiming that his triple axel would have been helped by figures training (which as has already been pointed out, he actually got from his first coach). Also you do realise that figures are patterns that are drawn on circles on the ice and not jumps don't you? There is no figure that would train someone to land a triple axel so your point seems even more....out there....
    Last edited by antmanb; 04-28-2014 at 02:51 PM.

  20. #400
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    The cost saving would be the cost of Jr competitions minus the travel,food&boarding. They would have all the competitions together with no extra days since the Jr skates would be inserted where the short programs are now. I can see why it was brought up but it's a bad bad idea. One day is not enough. If they had to do this dramatic of cut, I would at least cut the exhibitions and instead have a day where the top 10 from each senior discipline skates a short.

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