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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    But just as a skater who does poorly in the short can win it in the free; a skater can do amazing in the short and crap in the long and still win. Because the short program actually does matter.
    .
    Does this generate great skating, or mediocre skating?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by demetriosj View Post
    Does this generate great skating, or mediocre skating?
    I don't think it does either.
    But without a doubt, I think Hanyu earned his Olympic medal with his short program. That was a GREAT short program. And a crap long.

    Some skaters are better SP skaters, some are better LP skaters, a rare few are phenomenal at both. Speedy's changes would mean better SP skaters are basically cut out of the sport. As someone who prefers to watch SPs, I would rather see LPs cut- skaters who are typically LP skaters would get cut from the sport in that case. (And I also think that that would be disastrous for the sport- I'm not actually suggesting it.)
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 03-26-2014 at 02:38 PM.

  3. #83
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    Haha, he wants a mass start in long track speed skating?

    No other sport has results based on 2 segments? Nordic Combined? Ski jumping? Alpine Skiing Combined? Luge? Bobsleigh? Skeleton? Artistic & Rhythmic Gymnastics? Decathlon? Pentathlon? Diving? Golf? All of the above have more than one segment/multiple rounds or runs counting in the final score. I guess sports like Aerials, Halfpipe, Slopestyle have more than one run, but the best score counts? Still.
    I think I will have a snack and take a nap before I eat and go to sleep.

  4. #84
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    All the sliding sports are a very good example- they do the same thing what, four times? Why not just have one run?

    And excellent point about sports that have two runs with only one counting. Maybe skaters should do two long programs and we just count the best one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Back during the 6.0 days, I would have been up in arms and protesting in anger. Now, I find the SP to be sort of redundant and am no longer sure what the point of if it is anymore.
    Speedy made the short program redundant with IJS. Now he wants to administer the "coup de grace!"

  6. #86
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    Why don't we just eliminate the free along with the SP? Think of all the money organizers would save if they didn't have to put on any events and all the fans would have more free time! Plus nobody would need a shuttle, since they'd be nowhere to go and nothing to see!
    "The Devil is joining in, and that's never a good sign." Phil Liggett

  7. #87

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    Cinquanta urges the recipients to give the ideas consideration as soon as possible because “many of us might conclude their sport career, at least the one with the ISU” at the 2016 Congress.
    This is the most disturbing to me. He is a lame duck. His time is over and he knows it. The challenges he might perceive are for the next generation of leaders. He should be trying to preserve tradition at this point. Innovation was something for 15-20 years ago when their was money to invest in the sport. If either figure skating or speed skating has become irrelevant it was because he let it happen over decades of his own negligence. He has no right to dismantle either sport since he will not have to live with the effects.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 03-26-2014 at 03:32 PM.

  8. #88
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    Doing away with the short program because “no other sports are based on two segments.”

    Removing SPs would be a terrible decision for the integrity of the sport but you cannot deny that for the casual audience - which skating needs in order to grow or even survive - it would definitely be a positive change. It would eliminate situations where somebody skates 'the best' in the final but is denied the victory because of being behind after the SP, which confuses and angers people (including skating fans). It's the money that is the bottom line here. I hate that idea but I cannot deny the reasoning behind it.

    Making the skating singles, pairs, dance and team performances all last the same time.

    I would be all for shortening all free programs to 4 minutes and removing some of the elements (jumps in singles). What worries me though is what they would choose to remove. Back when they took one element out from the Men FS it was a spin and not a jump, despite there being 8 jumping passes (which is too much, IMO). I remember discussing it with one competitive skater and they had a theory that it was the big federations trying to take some of the edge away from Lambiel. It could have been just a conspiracy theory, yes. But the point here is that a decision can be made for political reasons, which will later affect all skaters and the sport as a whole.

    Keeping the judges anonymous so “nobody can detect which score has been decided by which judge.”

    I realise that an appearance of openness is important and with the scores being out in the open, at least we would get a feeling like we know what is happening and which judges seem to be more clueless but would it really be anything more than just a feeling? Would it really change anything? If you are out to cheat, you will find some way to cheat, whatever the circumstances are.

    I really don't want to return to the 'good old days' where you would have a federation official walking up to a judge at a major event and telling them 'your team will never place well again.' Or another official threatening people. I remember a lot of this kind of drama backstage before the anonymity was introduced.

    It's much harder to make a deal when you have no (at least immediate) guarantee of its results and it's much easier to judge according to your conscience if you feel like you can't be threatened. On the other hand, who is to guarantee that the results really remain 'sealed' until the end of season reviews?

    I can see both benefits and drawbacks to both anonymous and non-anonymous judging and I don't feel strongly about it going either way. But I think that it's naive to think that removing anonymity alone would fix anything. Back when judging wasn't anonymous, it was IMO at an even lower standard than it is now. And I don't think that anonymity had much do to with it. It's the judging system that sucked and was the real issue.

    The judging isn't anonymous at international, non-ISU competitions and the JGP series (IIRC). Is the standard of judging higher? Are the results more accurate?

    Simplifying the scoring system “to render it understandable.”

    I guess he is thinking about the mass audience again but seriously, most people have no clue about the rules of most sports that they watch. So why even bother? You lose integrity and you don't really gain anything.

    The judging system doesn't need 'simplifying.' It needs to finally get properly developed and tightened so that the rules are defined more clearly and a workable system is developed for implementing them.

    The ISU has always come up with systems that made sense only on paper and that nobody seemed to have thought much about in terms of how they are supposed to be implemented. I mean, take the 6.0 deductions as an example. Mistake X means deducting 0.3 from the technical merit score. But the judges would give out ordinals and the marks were just a tool. So you couldn't really deduct from the technical score because you needed to manipulate the scores so that you would be able to fit skaters where you though they should have placed. So the deductions list never made any sense, whatsoever.

    Redefine and perhaps rename the senior age category.

    I wonder what that even means.

    I don't know much about speed skating but glancing at how sweeping the proposed changes are, I can only imagine the fury that the speed skating community must be feeling now.

    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Isn't this really where the sport has been shifting for years now? Especially once they adopted cop, the LP just really became a double length SP. What's the point of it really, it's lost it's entire original intent. Whatever we thought we had in the "free skate" we lost years ago, slowly chiseled away at until cop killed it for good.
    SP still has stricter requirements and harsher deductions. And it's not like the free skating was ever "free" anyway. Theoretically, yes, but practically it definitely wasn't. And what would be the benefit of the free skating being more "free?" How would you be able to compare performances of different skaters if it was?

    If you point is the restriction of creativity, I think that on average we've seen more creativity under IJS then back under 6.0. And whatever system there is, you will have the majority of skaters being mediocre and only a few excelling.

    (I have the image of failed lingerie shoplifter Julia Obertas doing a spread eagle pivot element in my head now and it's all your fault. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I think it's all a plot to get us focused on something besides the Sochi Olympics .
    The wording of your sentence seems to indicate humour but the 'leak' was most likely deliberate and planned for precisely that reason. It also creates an appearance that ISU is doing something to 'improve things.'

    Let's all hope most of his ideas aren't serious and it's just an attempt at a distraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    As has been pointed out many times, the system has less to do with fraud than fraudsters and their enablers.
    Reading skating forums, it looks like every result that somebody disagrees with (skater from my country/that I like) must mean 'cheating.'

    A much bigger problem, IMO, is the lack of training and the system not being that well developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    Under the old 6.0 system, there was no anonymous judging. Hence, by bringing the 6.0 system back, that would get rid of that problem
    By the end of it, there was.

    6.0 had massive flaws far exceeding any issues present in IJS.

    I mentioned the deductions list already.

    6.0 was completely impractical because unless you can predict the future, how do you know how much room to leave so that you can fit all the skaters where you think they should place? You can't, so it's very possible that a skater completes their performance, you think they were 4th best but have no room left between the 3rd and 4th skater.

    I remember situations where somebody would skate late, perform poorly but end up placing relatively high anyway because the judges had no room left lower down the ranks. It was extremely frustrating.

    The main issue with 6.0: How can you weigh every single technical and presentation aspect in your head in order to come up with the ordinal? Your brain doesn't have enough bandwidth and unless there is some kind of system for it, there is no way you can do it in a remotely similar fashion for each of the skaters. So there's no level playing field.

    Since there is nothing to support you so you just go with 'a general hunch.' Now that still definitely happens in IJS to an extent but at least with the system being there, certain things get rewarded appropriately and it's not just judges 'reading from the Tarot cards.'

    Another thing - zero movement in Ice Dance. Even if skaters fell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoer View Post
    I was thinking what if we got rid of SD in ice dance- bring the pattern dance back (just one)
    Do you think most people would really like to watch 33 teams in a row, performing more or less exactly the same movements? You need to find some kind of compromise between trying to preserve the integrity of the sport and making it more appealing and I think that SD was quite a successful experiment in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by demetriosj View Post
    The short program no longer is do or die as it was with 6.0.
    Was it? You could not complete the planned amount of revolutions, fall and still place 4th in the SP under 6.0. It's highly unlikely that would happen under IJS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    For TV, it might work, allowing more time to show more skaters.
    As a general point, in terms of what to consider when making changes, whilst TV is still the biggest player at the moment, it's eventually going to go the way of Dodo, the same other traditional media have been. We've been moving towards streaming and on-demand services for a while now.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 03-26-2014 at 03:50 PM.

  9. #89

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    If anything, Ottavio Cinquanta is trying to roar like the dominant lion one last time while there is still an illusion of dominance strong enough that no challenger has yet risen up.

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    This makes me suspect the ISU is struggling financially. Well Cinquanta, the worst ISU president in history, can blame himself for that.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    This makes me suspect the ISU is struggling financially. Well Cinquanta, the worst ISU president in history, can blame himself for that.
    It's extremely frustrating to see speed skating sponging off figure skating. :/

    And ISU most likely is struggling, given the audience figures are nowhere near as high as they have been in the past.

  12. #92

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    I don't want them to eliminate the short, for many of the reasons you're already discussing. But I would like it if they gave three medals: short program, long program, and all-around. Talk about making the short matter! And it'd be like gymnastics, but shorter in format, as the AA wouldn't be competed separately.

    But it actually sounds like it's not that Cinquanta doesn't like the short program. It does sound more like they're looking for ways to cut, to save money.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  13. #93
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    I want to see the ISU eliminate figure skating. Let another body buy the rights to it.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-26-2014 at 04:11 PM.

  14. #94

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    If the ISU is broke, then Cinquanta should admit that and explain that this is why he's asking for such changes. Instead of demanding changes without providing any logical rationale. It's about being professional, responsible, accountable.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by fan View Post
    WTF is wrong with this man?
    ^^^
    THIS! Gawd I hate this man. He's no true figure skating fan and he's brought the sport to almost ruin with his harebrained notions.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    (I have the image of failed lingerie shoplifter Julia Obertas doing a spread eagle pivot element in my head now and it's all your fault. )

    Removing SPs would be a terrible decision for the integrity of the sport but you cannot deny that for the casual audience - which skating needs in order to grow or even survive - it would definitely be a positive change. It would eliminate situations where somebody skates 'the best' in the final but is denied the victory because of being behind after the SP, which confuses and angers people (including skating fans). It's the money that is the bottom line here. I hate that idea but I cannot deny the reasoning behind it.
    FS has always had to juggle chainsaws in order to evolve as the world lurches forward. There are no quick and easy solutions, which is exactly why $peedy as head of the ISU drives me crazy. It's all seemingly willy nilly quick fixes that always end of causing more problems then they solve. Nothing ever seems thoughtful or proactive, but reactionary.

    Anywho, one big issue they grapple with is fs has to decide if it's a sport or tv entertainment, a tight rope it's been walking since the 1960s. Supposedly, the SP was invented in order to appease the tv-viewing, fs-rule-ignorant public. Now it's being chacked for the very same reason it was invented?

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesy View Post
    Is this part of some master plan that when the reins are handed over to DG everyone is relieved?

    Quote Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
    If someone in Japan wants to take a whack at Speedy, go for it.
    We'll crowdfund for the lawyer.


    Someone get this man out of there!!!!

    Or make figure skating an independent sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I want to see the ISU eliminate figure skating. Let another body buy the rights to it.
    A friend posted on FB, "If ever there was a time to resurrect the World Skating Federation. . ."
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

  18. #98
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    I love Italy and Italians, but we have had bad luck with Italian sport executives:

    Sonia Bianchetti was instrumental in getting rid of compulsory figures. In many ways the sport died for me.

    Bruno Grandi was responsible for removing compulsories from artistic gymnastics. The sport has lost all the beauty and virtuosity.

    Oh, this opened up old wounds...

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post

    I also agree that the SP has become a bit redundant, since all the same elements are essentially required in the LP too, but I would rather see a significant restructuring of the SP and LP than scrapping the SP.
    Everyone should have to do a CD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    The English speaking countries could form a skating union with their own rules and standards. The Europeans and Asians can join if they choose, but we know it's the end of the road for the ISU being of use to the sport.
    Were the English-speaking countries to pull out, I wonder what would happen to Olympic TV rights bids from English-speaking countries?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #100
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    How badly I wish that World Skate Federation who were looking over to take over the sport had succeeded. Sadly they never even got off the ground. I hope the next ISU president can help reverse much of the damage that Cinquanta has caused.

    I agree with everyone though figure skating and speed skating should be completely seperate. They are absolutely nothing alike. I dont even agree with long track and short track speed skating sharing a governing body with each other, let alone figure skating which is another planet apart entirely.

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