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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    As for who was best the 97-98 season I would say Tara since she won the years biggest and 3rd biggest events- Olympics and grand prix final, vs Kwan who only won the years 2nd, 4th, and 5th- Worlds, Nationals, goodwill games. Tara was also more likely to beat Kwan's subpar winning performance at worlds than Michelle was to beat Tara's Nagano like outstanding winning performance at the grand prix final, but alas we will never know. Anyway that would make Tara the best 2 seasons and Kwan only 1 (95-96).
    But the numbers over the quad don't lie. Michelle won 13 gold medals from 1995-96-1997-98 and 4 silver medals. She never finished lower than second. So even if Tara could be said to dominate the 97-98 season, Michelle was dominant over the quad. And if Tara was likely to have beaten Michelle at 98 Worlds (a purely speculative assumption, of course), an uninjured Michelle was just as likely to have beaten her at the Grand Prix final, at which she didn't compete.

  2. #102
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    All golds are not equal though, so the 13 golds thing in itself doesnt mean much. Are you saying a gold at say Trophee de France is the same as the Olympic gold. All I know is I had to choose between Olympic gold, 1 world title, 2 grand prix final titles vs Olympic silver, 2 world titles, 1 grand prix final title I would probably pick the former. If I knew I would achieve the former while setting all kinds of youngest ever records which will probably last 100 years or more, and by winning almost every important meeting with my biggest rival at the height of our rivalry in doing so, I would take it in a heartbeat. Forgive me if I dont put the same stock in Kwan winning worlds with a barely 13 year old Tara coming 13th, as Tara winning all these events relegating the previous dominant Michelle to a silver medal time and time again. If you disagree fine, that is cool, but I can see why many pick Tara as tops of that quad. I do also, despite that I couldnt even stand Tara's skating, and her rise to the top annoyed me as a Maria fan as it was hard to see little Tara being pushed above more mature women like Michelle, Lu, Maria, but that is reality.

    Tara skated better in winning the grand prix final than Kwan did at worlds btw.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post

    Tara skated better in winning the grand prix final than Kwan did at worlds btw.
    And?
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  4. #104

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    The 13 gold medals include 2 world championships, 2 National Championships and 1 Grand Prix final/Championship series. Michelle also beat Tara twice in the GP series that year so she would have been the favorite to win the final. In any event, it does not follow that the way Tara skated at the GPF was the way she would have skated at Worlds. But even if Tara wins the 97-98 year the quad win should go to Michelle.


    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    All golds are not equal though, so the 13 golds thing in itself doesnt mean much. Are



    you saying a gold at say Trophee de France is the same as the Olympic gold. All I know is I had to choose between Olympic gold, 1 world title, 2 grand prix final titles vs Olympic silver, 2 world titles, 1 grand prix final title I would probably pick the former. If I knew I would achieve the former while setting all kinds of youngest ever records which will probably last 100 years or more, and by winning almost every important meeting with my biggest rival at the height of our rivalry in doing so, I would take it in a heartbeat. Forgive me if I dont put the same stock in Kwan winning worlds with a barely 13 year old Tara coming 13th, as Tara winning all these events relegating the previous dominant Michelle to a silver medal time and time again. If you disagree fine, that is cool, but I can see why many pick Tara as tops of that quad. I do also, despite that I couldnt even stand Tara's skating, and her rise to the top annoyed me as a Maria fan as it was hard to see little Tara being pushed above more mature women like Michelle, Lu, Maria, but that is reality.

    Tara skated better in winning the grand prix final than Kwan did at worlds btw.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    To conclude Cohen as best for 2003-2006 when she didnt win a single world or olympic event, and had no chance to ever beat a clean Slutskaya, clean Arakawa, or maybe even a clean Kwan is stupid.
    I didn't conclude. What's more stupid is failing to read people's posts properly before making a point.

  6. #106
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    I dont know why anyone would pick Navka & Kostomarov as best of any quad. Most accomplished maybe, but never the best dance team.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I dont know why anyone would pick Navka & Kostomarov as best of any quad. Most accomplished maybe, but never the best dance team.
    Who would have you put instead though? I greatly preferred Denkova/Stavisky and Delobel/Schoenfelder that quad and thought they were shafted all sorts of times that quad. However, Navka/Kostmorov were pretty undeniable at the 2006 Olympics, and did win both 2004 and 2005 Worlds handily (even if I would have given the 2004 World title to Denkova/Stavisky and placed them second in the FD to Delobel/Schoenfelder at 2005 Worlds…COP be damned).

    ETA:

    I have a question now that we're talking about skaters who dominated their quad. There's no question to me that Totimianina/Marinin win 2003-2006 thanks to Hongbo Zhao's injury putting them out of contention for the top spot from 2005 Worlds-on. However, I was rewatching their 2004 Worlds LP, and I forgot that they got all first place ordinals in the LP. Is 2004 Worlds the only time the eventual World champion would lose the LP by consensus post-figures? I know 2004 Worlds is an odd duck since the judges were giving out 6.0s like candy, but T/M didn't win one judge for their LP (they might have won a judge that ended up not being counted due to the weird post-2002 6.0 and pre-COP rules).
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 04-14-2014 at 05:58 AM.
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  8. #108
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    I actually dont dispute they probably deserve to be the most accomplished of the quad. The only title they won I probably wouldnt have given them is the 2004 worlds. However I still dont think they are the best. Their skating left no long standing impact, and Delobel & Schoenfelder and Denkova & Stayviski left far more memorable programs to the sport. He was also such a weak technical skater for an Olympic and World Champion, he was only a notch above Maurizio Margalio (in technical ability, Maurizio could never come anywhere near Roman in performing skill and beautiful lines though). She carried him to all those titles on her back basically.

    It is like I dont think Lysacek's titles were wrong. He deserved his 2009 world title and 2010 Olympic title. That would make him rightfully the most accomplished of the very uneven quad since Joubert who is the only other one who might have a case, didnt even get an Olympic medal. However I would still never say he was the best, so I dont see how N&K are any different other than their achievements are even more dominating and clear cut than his.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Yagudin wasnt the best skater of any quad. He won his titles only when Plushenko had injuries. Plushenko was super unlucky, after 99 Yagudin was never really the best again. Plushenko's brain cramp handed him the 2000 World title, and Plushenko's groin handed him the 2002 Olympics and World titles, otherwise Plushenko would have never lost to Yagudin in a major event again after 1999 Worlds. Yagudin was also handed the 1998 World title on a gold platter due to Kulik's withdrawal, he never would have won otherwise.


    1, Plushenko's brain did not cramp during his SP at 2000 worlds, he skated super clean, but lost to Yagudin by 1:8 judge's split. Yagudin made some mistakes during the LP, many people thought Plushenko would definitely have won had he skated clean. Well I sort of doubt it, judging by the fact that Yagudin still landed two quads, Plushenko never tried two quads in a program before that, and Yagudin got a bunch of 5.9s for presentation from the judges (7 IIRC),
    2, It's not because of unlucky that Plushenko got groin injury in 2002, it's because he's not as talented a jumper as Yagudin, as simple as that. He trained extremely hard on jumps, had Alexei Mishin focused on him for four years, and had the advantage of starting the quad training at a younger age. (When Stojko started to land quad constantly in competitions and got reward from the judges, lots of young skaters such as Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko, all started quad training around the same time. Plushenko hence started at a younger age, that's an advantage. However Yagudin was the one who mastered the quad the quickest. He had the highest quad successful rate during 97-98 season and quickly stood out, all others could only hit one if they had a good day.) Plushenko's lucky that Yagudin left Mishin after 98 worlds and trained under Tarasova who's never a technical coach and did not focus on jumps. When Yagudin increased his jump content during 01-02 season, Plushenko just lost the advantage and had to go for a 4lutz in a hope to out jump Yagudin and hence the groin injury. And obviously Alexei Mishin wasn't so confident on Plushenko's talent either, if Plushenko could out jump Yagudin easily, simply there's no need for him to play the bad guy to attack Yagudin. Speaking of unlucky, I consider that someone with a born joint defect unlucky.
    3,if Kulik could win the title so handily, it's strange for him to withdraw, it's not like he had lots of world titles already.
    Last edited by unicorn; 04-15-2014 at 02:45 AM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    At that years Grand Prix final Yagudin was perfect and only beat Plushenko by .1 with Plushenko turning out of his quad-triple, and not attempting a 2nd triple axel as Yagudin did. At the Olympics he had 2 triple axels, one in a super hard sequence, so skating cleanly he would win. Scott Hamilton even said "Yagudin hopes everyone skates bad". Barb Underhill said Yagudin could win if he were clean and Plushenko and Stojko made mistakes.

    At the 2000-2001 season Grand Prix final Yagudin was perfect and lost to Plushenko. Plushenko was given almost all 5.9s on both sets before Yagudin even skated his final program. Then at the 2001 Worlds Yagudin skated a clean short and again lost to Plushenko.
    At that GPF Yagudin was far from perfect while Plushenko only had a small extra turn on the 4-3-2.
    Again 2000-2001 GPF Yagudin wasn't perfect either while Plushenko did more difficult jump content, two quads, both in combinations, while Yagudin only landed one clean quad. It's meaningless to simply state who skated clean without analyzing the jump content. Like someone said already, Yagudin could still manage to win couple of first ordinals even with mistakes while Plushenko were flawless and with more difficult jump content.

  11. #111
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    If you are talking best skater rather than best results Bobek was best skater of 95-98, Kwan or Butyrskaya of 99-2002, Cohen of 2003-2006, Asada from 2007 until now. People like Kim and Slutskaya arent great skaters, just great competitors who take advantage of others failures to win medals. Same goes for people like Stojko, Plushenko, Volosozhar & Trankov, Totmianina & marinin, Witt, so on. There are ones like Kwan and Yagudin who are that rare combination of both a great skater and great competitor.

  12. #112
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    Pairs: 91-94 is Miskutienok & Dmitriev, 95-98 is Shishkova & Naumov, 99-2002 is Shen & Zhao, 2003-2006 is Shen & Zhao, 2007-2010 is Shen & Zhao, 2011-2014 is Volosozhar & Trankov only since Shen & Zhao didnt skate.

    Men: 91-94 is Petrenko, 95-98 is Eldredge, 99-2002 is Eldredge, 2003-2006 is Lambiel, 2007-2010 is Lysacek, 2011-2014 is Hanyu only since Lysacek's comeback didnt happen.

    Ladies: 91-94 is Yamaguchi, 95-98 is Lipinski, 99-2002 is Slutskaya, 2003-2006 is Slutskaya, 2007-2010 is Kim, 2011-2014 is Kim

    Dance: dont really care, boring event

  13. #113
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    LOL, Lysacek for 2010-2014 is hilarious. Like really, his failed comeback is the only reason Hanyu is top.. and not the fact that he's the definition of mediocrity.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechicko_o View Post
    LOL, Lysacek for 2010-2014 is hilarious. Like really, his failed comeback is the only reason Hanyu is top.. and not the fact that he's the definition of mediocrity.
    Yeah beating a totally clean Plushenko to win the Olympics without a quad, something skaters like Lambiel, Buttle, or Takahashi couldnt have come even close to doing in 2006 even going clean with quads, is the definition of mediocrity. Beating a clean Chan in the short program with the same jumps at the 2009 worlds, something probably no other skater can do, is the definition of mediocrity. Winning worlds, grand prix final, and Olympics all in a year of each other is mediocrity.

    You may not like Evan but dont be an idiot.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    There are ones like Kwan and Yagudin who are that rare combination of both a great skater and great competitor.
    The difference between Yagudin and Michelle Kwan is that Yagudin is also an extremely talented jumper, and has basically no weakness as a men's figure skater. Hence he's an Olympic champion and Kwan's not. I am not a Kwan fan, but judging by the fact that she was way out-jumped by Tara Lipinski in Nagano, but still won 3 judge's vote, obviously the judges think that she has something more. Had she done a little bit more difficult jump-combo, she would have won.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    The difference between Yagudin and Michelle Kwan is that Yagudin is also an extremely talented jumper, and has basically no weakness as a men's figure skater. Hence he's an Olympic champion and Kwan's not. I am not a Kwan fan, but judging by the fact that she was way out-jumped by Tara Lipinski in Nagano, but still won 3 judge's vote, obviously the judges think that she has something more. Had she done a little bit more difficult jump-combo, she would have won.
    Or if she just skated like Nationals with more speed, style, and quality. She didnt even need a triple-triple but she needed to skate her best. She didnt.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    Or if she just skated like Nationals with more speed, style, and quality. She didnt even need a triple-triple but she needed to skate her best. She didnt.
    or maybe she knew that she had no advantage on jumps, so she had to skate her best of the best to win, hence got lots of pressure that she simply couldn't skate her best.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    or maybe she knew that she had no advantage on jumps, so she had to skate her best of the best to win, hence got lots of pressure that she simply couldn't skate her best.
    And she was coming off an injury and changed her jump layouts after coming back and couldn't do the one reliable 3/3 she had for the same reason. I think that would create more pressure for sure, but she still skated amazingly well. Seven triples is nothing to sneeze at. And she won the short.

    O-

  19. #119

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    Also, unlike Yagudin, Kwan didn't have her closest competitor fall in the SP and place 4th and then skate less than her best in the LP at the Olympics. A lot of the time, the difference between being an OGM and not is circumstances. Especially for someone like Kwan who obviously was very capable of winning the Olympics considering how many titles she won in her career over the same skaters (multiple times) who would later on be OGMs.
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  20. #120
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    Fans of skaters who dont win the OGM often try to downplay it, but it can only be downplayed so much. It is still by far the biggest event in the sport. That includes worlds. One OGM and nothing to back it up does not make a legendary career, but an OGM with an otherwise great career elevates him it to another level. I can relate to that as I am a huge Savchenko & Szolkowy fan and their not winning the OGM kills me as much as it probably does a Kwan fan for them. However I also know the lack of the OGM will likely keep them behind even teams like Shen & Zhao and Volosozhar & Trankov in most fans minds, let alone the teams considered the very greatest ever in pairs. Had they just won one of those two OGMs they missed (2010 and 2014) it could be so different.

    I am also a huge fan of Kurt Browning, and his case is even worse, not even winning an Olympic medal. Atleast S&S and Kwan won 2, which is still a terrific fail. Browning's huge failures at the Olympics significantly takes away from his greatness. He is still a great, but not as great as he would otherwise have been.

    You just have to look at the threads with Lysacek involved and how many rate his career over people like Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan, yet without his OGM, even with just an Olympic silver, he would be a joke compared to those. Reality though is he has the OGM and that elevates his career greatly, even though he in no way has an impeccible record in other areas like say Yu Na Kim or Yagudin has.

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