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  1. #121

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    I wasn't trying to download the OGM in anyway as the effects (even short-term) of winning a OGM is obvious. It also really elevates an already great skater with results to back them up in terms of GOAT discussions. However, a lot of it is based on circumstance, and it's disingenuous to act like all skaters have the same Olympic experience/competition.
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  2. #122
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    Well Yagudin blew away everyone in the LP of the 2002 Olympics, including Plushenko who skated quite well (although not perfectly). So nobody is going to think he won the Olympic Gold due to Plushenko falling in the short. Well maybe crazy Plushenko ubers (and there are many of those as this thread, and some comments in it, prove), but that is it.

    I agree there are different ways to win an OGM. The ways Yagudin did in SLC and Kim did in Vancouver are the most impressive. I mean you could say Mao had 2 mistakes in the LP in Vancouver like Plushenko fell in his SP in SLC, but it would be the same thing, it was clear it wouldnt have made a bit of difference. Yagudin and Kim skated at an untouchable level for their rivals at those events. To win it the way Yamaguchi won by not skating her best isnt the absolute best way, but it is still better than not doing it at all if one has to choose.

  3. #123

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    I guess I have a problem with people framing it as skaters who do skate well and actually win first place ordinals as "failing" to win a OGM because it's not as if they did anything wrong. It really becomes a question for judges to answer and with no consensus, it shows that the competition could have gone another way. Again, this isn't to delegitimize the actual OGM, but more of a way to show that the silver medalist didn't really fail to do anything. Now, you can say Kwan should have done a 3/3 even though she was coming off of injury. That's true, and they may have gave her an unquestionable victory, but then let's say two more judges were won over to Kwan's side. What more could have Tara done? Nothing really. It was all at the discretion of the judges at that point.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  4. #124
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    I guess that is true, but then you can say that about alot of other competitions. The skaters legacy and what they are is largely dependent on the judges and their opinions, not just their own performances. The judges can make you whatever they want you want to be almost. The ladies event in Sochi shows their power and what they can literally do on their own out of a skaters control is beyond what many of us might have even imagined. Just a single event in a skaters career that could have gone a different way by a split judgement, not just an Olympics, but a worlds or even a single grand prix, could cause a huge momentum swing to a skaters entire career.

    In Kwan's case she probably was unlucky somewhat to skate better than most favorites skate and still not win. By the same token you would have to say Kim Yu Na was just as unlucky or even more not to win her 2nd OGM. She also skated at a level very few favorites skate at the Olympics and dont win in Sochi, and unlike Kwan in 98, there is a heavy feeling it was a very unjust and perhaps heavily politically motivated result, not just a debateable one as the case of Kwan vs Lipinski in 98. In comparision to Kwan, Kim skated much more of a personal best performance in 2010 than Kwan did at any Olympics, and in her "secondary" effort skated atleast as close to her potential as Kwan did in her better effort, 2014 vs 1998, so she is atleast as deserving of having won 2 OGMs as Kwan was of having won 1. In the end it doesnt matter though, she wont the recognition of a 2 time Olympic Champion she probably deserves, just as Kwan wont get the one as a 1 time she is probably unlucky to not have given her performance as the favorite in Nagano. Others like Yamaguchi, Lysacek, Hanyu, get very lucky by comparision. For Hanyu to have the same number of Olympic golds already as Yu Na Kim who killed it in 2 Olympics, when all he has turned in was one slop of an Olympic LP with falls is a massive injustice. It is the sport though.

  5. #125

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    I think that's one thing COP helps with. Despite all the discretion judges have with GOE and PCS and callers have with subjective level calling, at least we can see item-by-item what a skater should have done. With things spelled that way, it's easy to see a skater's failure. With 6.0, I think it's harder to place blame on a skater when they are of championship calibre and have skated well.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think that's one thing COP helps with. Despite all the discretion judges have with GOE and PCS and callers have with subjective level calling, at least we can see item-by-item what a skater should have done. With things spelled that way, it's easy to see a skater's failure. With 6.0, I think it's harder to place blame on a skater when they are of championship calibre and have skated well.
    Yeah but then there are cases like Chan's scores at the 2013 worlds, Chan's scores at 2010 Skate Canada, Sotnikova's scores at the 2014 Olympics, Kavaguti & Smirnov's scores at the 2010 Europeans, where many people simply disagree with pretty much every mark given out broken down as it is. So IJS doesnt help us uncork that mystery (which is probably something that didnt happen on the ice, and which we will never learn about).

  7. #127

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    Good point.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #128
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    Not a big Michelle Kwan fan but I would have to say she was the best of all of the 95-98, 99-2002, and 2003-2006 quads. Lets face it from 96-2005 she was always the skater to beat, and the only way someone else could sneak in to win anything is when she made mistakes. 1995 and 2006 are the only years of those 3 quads she wasnt the one to beat.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Are we really asking best skaters her or Most hardware?

    I am going to go with skating style and that iconic quality, not palmares.

    My votes would be

    95-98
    pairs- Nobody - they were all middling until Ber/Sik arrived at the tag end of that quad
    men- Kulik
    dance- Gritschuk & Platov
    ladies- Kwan

    99-2002
    pairs- Ber/Sikh
    men- Yagudin
    dance- Anissina & Peizerat
    ladies- Kwan

    2003-2006
    pairs- Totmianina & Marinin
    men- Plushenko
    dance- Denkova-Staviski
    ladies- Cohen by the end

    2007-2010
    pairs- Shen & Zhao
    men- Lysacek or Takahashi
    dance- Virtue-Moir
    ladies- Kim or Asada

    2011-2014
    pairs- Nobody - they are all middling
    men- nobody - they were all inconsistent
    dance- Davis & White
    ladies- Asada or Kostner

    I also could not quite bring myself to name Slutskaya (who I originally listed for 2002-2006) because, as already mentioned, her basic stroking really was pretty ungainly.
    Kim was clearly best of the 2007-2010 quad. Asada has no case. Even if you are judging just skating merits, Asada never did programs to match Kim's in Vancouver that quad. Maybe a short program at Skate America 2006, but never a long program.

    2011-2014 is more debateable amongst all of Asada, Kim, and Kostner.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Men:

    1995 - 1998

    I know Stojko is the logical choice but to me he really is the best competitor or the best athlete rather than the best skater.
    Stojko is by far the best skater of that quad. Who else would be a decent choice. Todd Eldredge who was boring and weaker than Stojko at pretty mcuh every aspect of skating except maybe spins. Urmanov and Kulik who each had maybe 2 good events all quadrennial.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishcream View Post
    Stojko is by far the best skater of that quad. Who else would be a decent choice. Todd Eldredge who was boring and weaker than Stojko at pretty mcuh every aspect of skating except maybe spins. Urmanov and Kulik who each had maybe 2 good events all quadrennial.
    Stojko was a relatively poor basic skater compared to Eldredge, Urmanov and Kulik. From the part you quoted from me, you would realise that I acknowledge Stojko as the best competitor of that quad (most consistent, most accomplished, etc).

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Obvious ones- Totmianina & Marinin 2003-2006, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 1995-2002, Volosozhar & Trankov 2011-2014, Kim 2007-2014, Yagudin 1999-2006, Stojko 1995-1998, Petrenko 1991-1994, Yamaguchi 1991-1994, Slutskaya 1999-2006, Gritschuk & Platov 1991-1998, Anissina & Peizerat 1999-2006, Virtue & Moir 2007-2014

    Not so obvious ones- Lipinski vs Kwan 1995-1998, Savchenko & Szolkowy vs Shen & Zhao 2007-2010, Hanyu vs Chan 2011-2014, who knows 2007-2010
    Yagudin 1999-2006 you made my day..probably Plushenko didn't exist.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko
    read this page,please...
    Last edited by lala; 04-22-2014 at 10:31 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post

    1, Plushenko's brain did not cramp during his SP at 2000 worlds, he skated super clean, but lost to Yagudin by 1:8 judge's split. Yagudin made some mistakes during the LP, many people thought Plushenko would definitely have won had he skated clean. Well I sort of doubt it, judging by the fact that Yagudin still landed two quads, Plushenko never tried two quads in a program before that, and Yagudin got a bunch of 5.9s for presentation from the judges (7 IIRC),
    2, It's not because of unlucky that Plushenko got groin injury in 2002, it's because he's not as talented a jumper as Yagudin, as simple as that. He trained extremely hard on jumps, had Alexei Mishin focused on him for four years, and had the advantage of starting the quad training at a younger age. (When Stojko started to land quad constantly in competitions and got reward from the judges, lots of young skaters such as Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko, all started quad training around the same time. Plushenko hence started at a younger age, that's an advantage. However Yagudin was the one who mastered the quad the quickest. He had the highest quad successful rate during 97-98 season and quickly stood out, all others could only hit one if they had a good day.) Plushenko's lucky that Yagudin left Mishin after 98 worlds and trained under Tarasova who's never a technical coach and did not focus on jumps. When Yagudin increased his jump content during 01-02 season, Plushenko just lost the advantage and had to go for a 4lutz in a hope to out jump Yagudin and hence the groin injury. And obviously Alexei Mishin wasn't so confident on Plushenko's talent either, if Plushenko could out jump Yagudin easily, simply there's no need for him to play the bad guy to attack Yagudin. Speaking of unlucky, I consider that someone with a born joint defect unlucky.
    3,if Kulik could win the title so handily, it's strange for him to withdraw, it's not like he had lots of world titles already.
    h

    Hi Unicorn! Great to "see" you! There are some crazy Plushenko and Yagudin ubers in this thread...

    You wrote many fals things again...no matter I like them!

    Plushenko easily beat Yagudin in Euros 2000. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Poor Alexei... and Plushenko was only 17...
    If he didn't bomb his LP in WCH he won his frist WCH title......
    In the 2000/2001 season Plushenko beat Yagudin everywhere Yagudin has no chance so I don't know what are you talking about.. After that season Tarasova hired psychologist for Yagudin because he lost his self-confidence ....

    Plushenko landed in 4Lutz in training 2001 and try it in the COR, but he felt. He tried it because he always wanted to improve his skating...He always put his limits... his quad lutz attemt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

    Mishin perfectly knew who is his the chosen one. A strong man with strong soul and great will-power..not a cry baby, and not a malicious and envy person..
    Last edited by lala; 04-23-2014 at 09:31 AM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishcream View Post
    Kim was clearly best of the 2007-2010 quad. Asada has no case. Even if you are judging just skating merits, Asada never did programs to match Kim's in Vancouver that quad. Maybe a short program at Skate America 2006, but never a long program.

    2011-2014 is more debateable amongst all of Asada, Kim, and Kostner.

    Little to debate about the latest quad if you look back at the way Kim won over the other two in the 2013 Worlds.

  15. #135

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    Even though I found Kim's programs to be boring in 2013, I cannot deny that she dominated that competition.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  16. #136
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    I think it has to be Kim for both 2007-2010 and 2011-2014. She may have won only 1 major title but she was very close to winning all 3 she was in, and blew the field to pieces in the one she did win. Furthermore she is widely believed to be blindly robbed of winning the two she didnt win. 2007-2010 goes without saying. In 2007 and 2008 Kim and Asada were close, and 2009 and 2010 Kim was way better, and add to that Kim won the biggest prize and was more consistent and it isnt a contest.

    Kwan vs Slutskaya in 99-2002 and 95-98 are interesting debates. I lean towards Slutskaya for 99-2002 and Kwan for 95-98. IMO you cant be the best skater of a quad if you were irrelevant 2 seasons of it. You dont have to be the best, but you have to atleast be significant all or most of the quad. Kwan in 94-95 wasnt every significant either, but she was atleast a top 5 skater, and all 3 remaining quads she was a big force, even if not always the best. Tara wasnt even one of the 10 best skaters in the world in either 94-95 or 95-96.

    Navka & Kostomarov as the best of anything is a joke. Who cares if the judges were on crack. 2003-2006 was the worst judged dance quad ever, along with probably being the poorest in quality ever. Everyone knows Belbin & Agosto and even the horrible Grushina & Goncharov were purposely inflated and given undeserved medals just to create such an artificial gap between N&K and their REAL biggest competition- the Bulgarians and Delobel & Schonfelder of France, that nobody would question their wins. After all hard to create controversy that the 4th or 5th place finisher didnt win gold, the most you could do is create controversy they didnt medal. By artificially holding up 2 teams nobody would say deserved to beat N&K they artificially hid the controversy of their wins.

  17. #137

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    I think strong and good are different but I can live if there are people who say they are the same.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    h

    Hi Unicorn! Great to "see" you! There are some crazy Plushenko and Yagudin ubers in this thread...

    You wrote many fals things again...no matter I like them!

    Plushenko easily beat Yagudin in Euros 2000. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Poor Alexei... and Plushenko was only 17...
    If he didn't bomb his LP in WCH he won his frist WCH title......
    In the 2000/2001 season Plushenko beat Yagudin everywhere Yagudin has no chance so I don't know what are you talking about.. After that season Tarasova hired psychologist for Yagudin because he lost his self-confidence ....

    Plushenko landed in 4Lutz in training 2001 and try it in the COR, but he felt. He tried it because he always wanted to improve his skating...He always put his limits... his quad lutz attemt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

    Hi, lala, long time no see, you are still as silly as before. I am sorry, which sentence in my post is incorrect? Your narrow mind must be thinking that Plushenko won Euro, he should have won worlds too, without thinking that people's strategy could change in different competitions. Plushenko won the 2000 Euro because Yagudin only did one quad and made mistake on his last triple. 2000 worlds he did two quad in his lp with a 4-3 combo, two 3a, and that's year 2000, people just started to include a quad in their sp, landing two quad in a lp is something at the time, and the judges gave him 7 5.9s showing no sign that Plushenko was favoured to win. Plushenko's brain cramp only shows that he's a dumb person who couldn't handle the mistake, not a big impact on the final result. Yagudin beat some elite skaters at international competitions when he's 13, 15, 17. Plushenko beat Yagudin first time at an international competition when he's 17, you are pathetic if you think only Plushenko could beat people older than him, there’re always certain advantages as a younger competitor. 2000 Euros and worlds, Yagudin won two sp, one lp, lost one lp to Plushenko, that’s a 3:1.
    00-01 season, Yagudin had motivation problem and lacked the stamina, he constantly could only land one quad, and then bomb the other, Plushenko took advantage of that. In 01-02 season, Yagudin upgraded his jump content, started to land two quad and do more difficult jump combo too. Plushenko could have won like Tara Lipinski, way out-jump Yagudin. But what did Plushenko have at the time to do that? 4t-3t-3l? Yagudin had that in practice too, 3a-1/2lp-3f? Yagudin had 4t-1/2lp-3s. If you think if they skated similar jump content, Plushenko could win, you are delusional. 2001 GPF, Yagudin made mistake on his 3A in his sp, still two judges put him first.

    Yagudin's 4t-3t-3l, it was fully rotated, and look, Yagudin trained under Tarasova who's never a technical coach, and when he left Mishin, quad technique wasn't totally mature yet. And Plushenko trained under Mishin for four years, was younger, physically stronger and always overtrained himself. But he just had no advantage on jumps at the time.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...kkG_gbwzGs#t=4

    Plushenko's 4t-3t-3l cheated at least half a loop on the 3l, I found the guy's talent was way over-rated, he's an extremely hard working person and the skating god rewarded him for that. His body carriage was awkward (especially during the footwork sequence), his spiral was shaky, while Yagudin has lots of nice field moves like spiral, spread eagle, hydroblade, edges are long and secure. Lots of Plushenko fans blame Alexei Mishin for poor choreography, actually the poor guy did his best to hide Plushenko's weakness.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...lv_v4B4M#t=365

    Tarasova should always hire a sports psychologist to work with her. She cannot touch up the technical side, but she's good at putting unnecessary pressure on her students, she did that to Kulik, to Yagudin. And I believe that Sotnikova did well last season because she's paying more attention to Kovtun, LOL. The sports psychologist taught Yagudin that there's no such a thing as jump machine in skating world, told him he should not only win in the competitions, but also win the practice, it could put pressure on other skaters. Yagudin landed 4t-3t-3l right in front of Mishin and Plushenko for a couple of times in practices before Olympics and constantly talking about how he could jump like a balloon now, professional is professional, it worked I think. But if it's not Yagudin's talent, it's simply no use.

    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Mishin perfectly knew who is his the chosen one. A strong man with strong soul and great will-power..not a cry baby, and not a malicious and envy person..
    Both Mishin and Yagudin have strong soul, Yagudin is an extremely smart person in life too, he's good at school, clever in training, he never admired Mishin as much as Plushenko did. Plushenko on the contrarily always admires Alexei Mishin, he's willing to listen to him from the bottom of his heart. He listened to Mishin before, now he listens to his wife. I would call him disciplined instead of strong soul. LOL
    Last edited by unicorn; 04-27-2014 at 05:04 AM.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I guess I have a problem with people framing it as skaters who do skate well and actually win first place ordinals as "failing" to win a OGM because it's not as if they did anything wrong.
    It is not that they did everything wrong, but that someone else did a bit better. Still that is not the same as winning as is naturally given lesser value. I know skating is different as judges decide and sometimes they make questionable choices. However as much as a parallel can be drawn take a sprinter. Lets say a top female sprinter runs a 9.75. They probably (although you would have to see the race to know for certain) didnt really do anything wrong, that is a great and sometimes gold medal worthy time. However if someone else ran a 9.73 that day it still was just not good enough to gain the Olympic gold that day, and should not be recognized as if it were a gold medal, despite the racer probably doing nothing wrong per say.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    95-98- Stojko, Kwan, K&D, G&P
    99-02- Yagudin, Slutskaya, B&S, A&P
    03-06- Plushenko, Arakawa, T&M, N&K
    07-10- Lysacek & Takahashi - tie (no single man dominated this quad; Evan & Dai both only had 1 year of excellence), Kim, S&S, V&M
    11-14 Chan, Kostner (only lady to medal at every single Worlds in the quad & an Olympic bronze that should have been gold), V&T, D&W
    My first list was based on who was best in terms of dominance and achievements or who the judges viewed as having the most reputation.

    This list is based on who was best in terms of my personal enjoyment level of their performances:

    95-98- Urmanov, Kwan & Bobek - tie, W&S, K&O
    99-02- Yagudin, Kwan & Butyrskaya & Gusmeroli - 3 way tie, B&S, D&V
    03-06- Lambiel & Savoie - tie, Arakawa & Kostner & Rochette - 3 way tie, S&Z, D&L
    07-10- Lambiel & Abbott - tie, Rochette, S&S, V&M
    11-14- Chan & Abbott & Gachinski - 3 way tie, Kostner, V&T & S&S & M-T&M - 3 way tie, V&M & I&K & H&D squared (Hubbell/Donohue & Hurtado/Diaz) & C&P/G&P & P/C - 6 way tie
    Last edited by museksk8r; 04-27-2014 at 05:17 PM.

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