Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 147
  1. #81
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    83
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    This shows Maria was never going to be a rival to Michelle. Skating a clean program and getting a 5.1, and only two technical marks above 5.4. Imagine that ever happening to Kwan or Slutskaya, never!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bElDo6C2Dt4

    Then skating cleanly at the early 97 grand prix final and losing to Michelle and Irina who both skated horribly:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXNynMsOI8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0NpKlXwneQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ROeG9rwoSE

    Losing her world title in 2000 due to missing the triple salchow twice. The salchow the easiest jump in skating. She only had to do two of them to win the title in style by winning the long program, and do one of the two to win the title by being 2nd in the LP, and she couldnt even do a simple salchow to make either happen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGDF-qIeZrM


    Losing what should have been an easy Olympic bronze in 1998 by making 5 mistakes and skating without any of her usual artistry, flair, and speed either:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4Fi9cXBLU


    So overall she was a failure who the judges didnt respect or like either due to her stiff and boring skating and inconsistency, not a real champion like her teammate the great Irina.

  2. #82

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    498
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think it's very clear both in terms of big international results and actual skating that Kwan was the best skater in the 1995-8 quad and the 1999-2002 quad.
    Yes. It takes pretzel logic to say that a 5 time World Champion(and on the World podium for 9 years, straight), 9 time National Champion and 2 time Olympic medalist wasn't dominant in any four year period during her career.
    Last edited by giselle23; 04-11-2014 at 07:57 PM.

  3. #83
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    16
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Obvious ones- Totmianina & Marinin 2003-2006, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 1995-2002, Volosozhar & Trankov 2011-2014, Kim 2007-2014, Yagudin 1999-2006, Stojko 1995-1998, Petrenko 1991-1994, Yamaguchi 1991-1994, Slutskaya 1999-2006, Gritschuk & Platov 1991-1998, Anissina & Peizerat 1999-2006, Virtue & Moir 2007-2014

    Not so obvious ones- Lipinski vs Kwan 1995-1998, Savchenko & Szolkowy vs Shen & Zhao 2007-2010, Hanyu vs Chan 2011-2014, who knows 2007-2010

  4. #84
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    16
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Yes. It takes pretzel logic to say that a 5 time World Champion(and on the World podium for 9 years, straight), 9 time National Champion and 2 time Olympic medalist wasn't dominant in any four year period during her career.
    Kwan had greatness stretched over a very long time which few skaters in history have had. She was one of the best always from 1996-2005 so basically almost 3 quadrennials. So no wonder she compiled great career numbers. That doesnt mean she was absolutely dominant in any particular one. I am sure you would admit she definitely did not in anyway dominate her rivalries with Tara in 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, and if anything they had the upper hand over her in those.

  5. #85

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    2,223
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5970
    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Kwan had greatness stretched over a very long time which few skaters in history have had. She was one of the best always from 1996-2005 so basically almost 3 quadrennials. So no wonder she compiled great career numbers. That doesnt mean she was absolutely dominant in any particular one. I am sure you would admit she definitely did not in anyway dominate her rivalries with Tara in 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, and if anything they had the upper hand over her in those.
    Tara won the big one in the 1997-98 season, the Olympics, barely ... over an excellent Kwan. Kwan won the SP at those Olympics. Tara lost to Kwan at Skate America. Tara lost to Laetitia Hubert at her other GP event (think it was Trophee Lalique). Tara lost to Kwan at U.S. Nationals (both the SP and LP). Kwan won Worlds; Tara didn't compete. Perhaps Kwan did not dominate Lipinski that season, but she won more head-to-head encounters than she lost and she won Worlds. Kwan just happened to lose the big one.

    O-

  6. #86
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,831
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Honestly I feel Nagano could have gone either way. Tara's performance had the "childlike magic" and all that stuff, but Michelle was just such a more complete skater. Tara had a great performance but I just watched them back to back, and Tara just reminded me of a little bunny hopping about. the performance, while very age appropriate, was just so so so juniorish to me. I am not saying she did not deserve to win at all, but people act like Michelle had this horrible skate and just watching it now, it was really really wonderful and I don't think there would have been a controversy if she had won.
    Last edited by UGG; 04-11-2014 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #87
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    83
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    Honestly I feel Nagano could have gone either way. Tara's performance had the "childlike magic" and all that stuff, but Michelle was just such a more complete skater. Tara had a great performance but if you watch them back to back (like I just did), Tara just reminded me of a little bunny hopping about. the performance, while very age appropriate, was just so so so juniorish to me. I am not saying she did not deserve to win at all, but people act like Michelle had this horrible skate and just watching it now, it was really really wonderful and I don't think there would have been a controversy if she had won.
    I agree, but you could say the same about some of the events Kwan won, such as the 96 worlds she won over Chen. That also could have gone either way, and I dont think anyone would have complained had Chen won.

  8. #88
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,831
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by rickmercer View Post
    I agree, but you could say the same about some of the events Kwan won, such as the 96 worlds she won over Chen. That also could have gone either way, and I dont think anyone would have complained had Chen won.
    No one calls Chen a choke artist due to that competition though. That is the difference. Nagano should IMO be debated the same way 96 worlds is but instead, all anyone talks about is how she choked. And she really did not. I guess what I mean is- yes Tara was able to keep it together to win...but Michelle did too. She just did not win. She still showed she was a great competitor.

  9. #89
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    83
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    No one calls Chen a choke artist due to that competition though. That is the difference. Nagano should IMO be debated the same way 96 worlds is but instead, all anyone talks about is how she choked. And she really did not. I guess what I mean is- yes Tara was able to keep it together to win...but Michelle did too. She just did not win. She still showed she was a great competitor.
    Kwan is held to a high standard its true. That is what happens when you are that level of greatness. People say Kim is a perennial choker at worlds since she won it only twice as well. She won the short program and long program both 4 times each at worlds, so twice won both programs and six times total atleast one, and never failed to medal in any of her 6 appearances at worlds, but people act like her record there is a huge dissapointment and a disgrace for someone like her. I guess Kwan at the Olympics deals with the same thing. Athletes like that are expected alot of everywhere, since they usually deliver it most places.

  10. #90

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    498
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Kwan had greatness stretched over a very long time which few skaters in history have had. She was one of the best always from 1996-2005 so basically almost 3 quadrennials. So no wonder she compiled great career numbers. That doesnt mean she was absolutely dominant in any particular one. I am sure you would admit she definitely did not in anyway dominate her rivalries with Tara in 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, and if anything they had the upper hand over her in those.
    But if it is true that Michelle did not dominate those rivalries (which I do not concede), neither did Tara nor Irina dominate over Michelle. Nor would I agree they had the upper hand. Certainly not Irina, who folded at 2000 and 2001 Worlds and failed even to place over Michelle in 1999, when Michelle only won silver. Tara also dominated only one season--1996-1997. But Michelle likewise dominated in 1995-96, which was part of that quad. Both were the dominant skaters in 1997-98 but it is not clear at all that one dominated over the other. It goes to Tara only if she is given credit for winning the Grand Prix final in which Michelle did not compete and Michelle is given no credit for winning Worlds in which Tara did not compete.

  11. #91
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    23
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    Obvious ones- Totmianina & Marinin 2003-2006, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 1995-2002, Volosozhar & Trankov 2011-2014, Kim 2007-2014, Yagudin 1999-2006, Stojko 1995-1998, Petrenko 1991-1994, Yamaguchi 1991-1994, Slutskaya 1999-2006, Gritschuk & Platov 1991-1998, Anissina & Peizerat 1999-2006, Virtue & Moir 2007-2014

    Not so obvious ones- Lipinski vs Kwan 1995-1998, Savchenko & Szolkowy vs Shen & Zhao 2007-2010, Hanyu vs Chan 2011-2014, who knows 2007-2010
    For me, it is clear. Chan.
    Hanyu's big achievements(OG, the first WC win, the first GPF win) have come all since Dec. 2013.
    At the point of Nov. 2013(Both competed in 13TEB), these two were in different classes, career-wise and skating-wise.
    And both OG and 13GPF gold could have been Chan's titles, if 13GPF had not held in Japan. (Hanyu's PCS risen to the Chan level at 13GPF lasted and influenced Sochi results.)
    Last edited by crisp; 04-12-2014 at 10:33 AM.

  12. #92
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    23
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    (as for Kwan-Tara-Irina..)
    What is obvious is that best skater of the 95-02 combined quads is Kwan.
    Last edited by crisp; 04-12-2014 at 10:55 AM.

  13. #93
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,435
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by OliviaPug View Post
    Tara was mighty impressive, but I can't give her the best skater of the quad. Her record doesn't earn her that distinction, in my opinion.
    O-
    Nor does her skating. She was a successful jumper because she was small and shapeless and could rotate quickly in the air. Her jumps were actually pretty tiny, she flutzed badly, the loops on the back of combinations were often nearly 180 degrees pre-rotated, and her 2 axel was whipped and ugly. The rest of her skating was good but not great.

  14. #94
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,195
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by staceyliving View Post
    That doesnt mean she was absolutely dominant in any particular one. I am sure you would admit she definitely did not in anyway dominate her rivalries with Tara in 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, and if anything they had the upper hand over her in those.
    Well she was the most dominant skater in those quads because no one else was more dominant in those quads. She didn't dominate every season but did overall dominate the quad. She won more world titles in those quads than anyone else. Two each to be exact. And in the years she lost, she lost to a different skater and still came 2nd (or 4th in 1995). So how could anyone have been more dominant?

    Kwan had it all over Lipinski in 95 and 96 and was a close second in 1997 and 1998 (if that - I would say they were equally dominant since they exchanged wins). In fact, Kwan beat Lipinski more than the other way round in 1998 season and both times with bigger margins (both 9-0 splits I believe, whereas she lost on a 3-6 split).

    Kwan didn't compete against Slutskaya in 1999 (unless you count the Goodwill Games) but did win silver at Worlds. Kwan and Slutskaya went 1-1 and 1-1 (not counting Skate Canada) in 2000 and 2001 seasons with Kwan winning the bigger prize, both times. Again, co-dominant but with Kwan slightly ahead. I would say Kwan was more dominant in those 3 seasons over Slutskaya. 2002 goes to Slutskaya despite that bogus GPF win and Kwan actually winning the Olympic short.

    argh - giselle beat me to it, but I typed a long post so I am going to keep it anyways.
    Last edited by Marco; 04-12-2014 at 03:17 PM.

  15. #95

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    498
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    If just the 1995-96 and 1997-98 periods are considered (because no one was dominant in 1994-95), Michelle in major competitions won gold 13 times and silver 4 times. She never finished lower than second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Kwan

    I would say that's pretty dominant.

  16. #96
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    with my Sestra Helena plotting how to ravish Hot Paul and delicious Cal
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Certainly not Irina, who folded at 2000 and 2001 Worlds and failed even to place over Michelle in 1999, when Michelle only won silver.
    Irina didn't fail to beat Michelle at 1999 Worlds; she wasn't a member of the Russian team at the European or World championships that season. In the 1999 season, Slutskaya was out of shape and out of motivation and considered quitting skating. It took an all time career low of losing every event she entered in the 1999 season to inspire her to regroup and become an even better skater and launch a comeback where she would dominate every event up to the World Championships and the Olympics in the next many seasons.

  17. #97
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Slutskaya would probably have won the 99 world silver behind Butyrskaya had she been sent. The Russian federation were stupid to send a perennial loser like Voltchkova over a real champion like Slutskaya. Since the judges love sweeps they might have given Soldatova the bronze over Kwan and made a Russian sweep if slutskaya was there.

    Anyway I agree with giving the edge to Slutskaya over kwan in 99-2002 for sure. To make all the seasons out as equal first of all is a huge error since everyone knows the 2001-2002 season is by FAR the most important one. You have the Olympics, the biggest even by far of every quadrennial, plus a worlds just like every other year, and in this case you had a Goodwill Games too. So Slutskaya pawning Michelle to death this year (5-0 record, winning or placing above her on all the big podiums), along with dominating the 2000 and 2001 seasons except for her worlds free skate defeat to Michelle's, is more than enough to give her skate of the decade. In Olympic and worlds it is pretty much even between the two with Kwan with 2 worlds, 2 silver, and olympic bronze, vs Irina 1 worlds, 2 silvers, and olympic silver, and since Irina trumps Kwan easily everywhere else- grand prix wins, grand prix medals, Goodwill Games title, grand prix final titles 3 to 0, head to head, Irina is the easy winner.


    Tara vs Michelle is a harder one, but at the height of their rivalry Tara won almost all her important meetings with Michelle in the 96-97 and 97-98 meetings. Out of the 5 biggest events held- 2 grand prix finals, 2 worlds, 1 olympics, Tara won 4 of 5, and the only one Michelle won Tara wasnt in. In their 5 biggest meetings- 2 U.S Nationals, 1 grand prix final, 1 worlds, 1 olympics, Tara again won 4 of 5. Even looking at the whole quad I would take Tara's Olympic gold, 1 world title, 2 grand prix final titles over Kwan's Olympic silver, 2 world titles, 1 grand prix final title. Bashing Tara for not beating Michelle Kwan as a 12 year old is stupid. Who was Michelle Kwan beating at that age, she couldnt even beat Nicole Bobek in big events at nearly 15. So while less obvious than Irina vs Michelle the proceding quad which is clearly Irina, I would probably pick Tara for this one.
    Last edited by butyrskafanatic; 04-13-2014 at 05:35 PM.

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    As for who was best the 97-98 season I would say Tara since she won the years biggest and 3rd biggest events- Olympics and grand prix final, vs Kwan who only won the years 2nd, 4th, and 5th- Worlds, Nationals, goodwill games. Tara was also more likely to beat Kwan's subpar winning performance at worlds than Michelle was to beat Tara's Nagano like outstanding winning performance at the grand prix final, but alas we will never know. Anyway that would make Tara the best 2 seasons and Kwan only 1 (95-96).

  19. #99
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    107
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    91-94- Petrenko, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, Usova & Zhulin (since they are the real champions of 91 worlds, 93 worlds, 94 olympics, and 94 worlds), Yamaguchi
    95-98- Kovarikova & Novotny (world title and 2 world pros, I think beating G&G to win 1 of the 2), Kyrlova & Ovsiannikov (I never forgive G&P for stealing U&Z's 94 gold, hate them forever), Kwan (sorry Tara is a shitty worthless skater no matter how many titles she won, she is garbage and an ugly gap toothed troll and loser skater like giselle23 and others have said), Stojko

    99-2002- Slutskaya, Yagudin, Anissina & Peizerat, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze
    2003-2006- boring quad, no picks, well Slutskaya for women, the rest dont care
    2007-2010- another boring quad, no picks
    2011-2014- Hanyu, Volosozhar & Trankov, Kim, Davis & White

  20. #100
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    107
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    My take on "best skater" is that she doesn't have to win the big prize but should have the best qualities that the judging system rewards, plus some general good performances within that quad.

    1995-1998 Kwan (4, 1, 2, 1, 2 at Worlds and Olympics)

    I understand those who value OGM more, but Lipinski only started to co-dominate in 1997 and 1998. She was pretty much MIA in the senior international elite scene in 1995 and 1996. Kwan came a close 4th at 1995 Worlds and a close 2nd at 1997 Worlds, or else the record would look even more convincing even without the OGM.

    1999-2002 Kwan (2, 1, 1, 2, 3 at Worlds and Olympics)

    I think this is pretty clear. Kwan was able to hold off Slute up to 2001.

    2003-2006 ?

    4 different World Champions. Kwan and Slute both fully dominated a season and missed a season, and both missed 2 out of 5 major events of the quad. Arakawa won the OGM on top of the world title but was otherwise quite inconsistent at Worlds (7, 1, 9, -, 1). Meissner is out of the question. Perhaps Cohen, who competed at all 5 major events of the quad and went 4, 2, 2, 3, 2, is a legit choice.

    2007-2010 Kim (3, 3, 1, 2, 1)

    Asada went (2, 1, 4, 1, 2) so it's close, but Kim's victory over Asada were with bigger margins.

    2011-2014 Kostner (3, 1, 2, 3, 3)

    Again, 4 different World Champions. Ando is out of the question. Kostner medalled at all 5 big events. Kim skipped 2 Worlds and never did the GPs again, but otherwise went (2, -, 1, - 2) at the big 5 events. Like in the last quad, Asada was up and down and went (6, 6, 3, 1, 6). I think I will go with Kostner.
    To conclude Cohen as best for 2003-2006 when she didnt win a single world or olympic event, and had no chance to ever beat a clean Slutskaya, clean Arakawa, or maybe even a clean Kwan is stupid.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •