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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    So then my question has always been, how is it determined that one judge is going to be an ISU judge while the others will be international judges?
    Countries decide when and which of their judges to promote from national to international, as well as from international to ISU. The criteria and requirements for international and ISU judges are listed in ISU Rule 413: http://static.isu.org/media/79156/20...r_icedance.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Yuna's second triple lutz nearly got all +2s across the board also ... Like I explained later on in my post, agreement in scores is a bad thing when all the judges unanimously agree on a very questionable call. Yuna's second lutz was quite scratchy on the landing and was not worthy of a +2, let alone a +3 that one judge gave her.
    The majority of judges (5) gave her second 3Lz +1.

    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    I don't expect much to come of this as the ISU has built themselves a very cushy castle of imperviousness.
    Yup, but I also think it's a good thing that Korea is making the effort.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 03-22-2014 at 03:15 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Like I explained later on in my post, agreement in scores is a bad thing when all the judges unanimously agree on a very questionable call. Yuna's second lutz was quite scratchy on the landing and was not worthy of a +2, let alone a +3 that one judge gave her.
    Except:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    But the majority of judges (5) gave her second 3Lz +1.
    Yep. 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 1 1

    So which judges were in collusion there--the ones who gave her the 1s or the ones who gave her the 2s? And is the one who gave her a 3 an honest judge because he or she wasn't in agreement on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    And other skaters who were given outrageous PCS in comparison to skaters who received lower PCS for better skating quality, choreography, and interpretation says a lot about the questionable quality of the judging as well.
    It is amazing that the judges don't know how to award PCS when everyone else does, even if everyone else doesn't agree on what PCS should be, either.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Except:



    Yep. 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 1 1

    So which judges were in collusion there--the ones who gave her the 1s or the ones who gave her the 2s? And is the one who gave her a 3 an honest judge because he or she wasn't in agreement on that?



    It is amazing that the judges don't know how to award PCS when everyone else does, even if everyone else doesn't agree on what PCS should be, either.
    It's questionable whether that lutz was even +1 worthy. The GOEs for that jump should have been 0s and +1s, not +1s and +2s, IMO.

    And so you think Julia and Adelina deserve higher PCS than Mao? Or Adelina getting higher PCS than Kostner in the FS? And that Adelina should get similar PCS to Kim?
    Last edited by smarts1; 03-22-2014 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    And so you think Julia and Adelina deserve higher PCS than Mao? Or Adelina getting higher PCS than Kostner in the FS? And that Adelina should get similar PCS to Kim?
    Why yes, because what I said was that I agreed with the judges absolutely, except I didn't

    What makes you an authority on, say, skating skills? Or choreography and interpretation? Everyone has an opinion; I see lots of people here asserting with great confidence that X should get this PCS and Y should get that PCS--yet what makes you so capable of determining those scores? I actually studied choreography at one point and I don't know exactly how one goes about assigning a number to choreography in skating, which is surely different from dance. And yes, I've read the criteria. It didn't help a whole lot. I mean:

    Purpose (idea, concept, vision)
    Proportion (equal weight of parts)
    Unity (purposeful threading)
    Utilization of personal and public space
    Pattern and ice coverage
    Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)
    Originality of purpose, movement and design
    Shared responsibility in achieving purpose (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)

    What numbers do you assign there and what do you base those number assignments on? Your overall impression of the program? Whether you liked it or not?

    But a lot of other people seem to know how it's done--and seem to think that there is no question that they are right, even when I read some of their posts and think "WTF?" You can't even judge a lot of those things if you are just watching on television, and that's assuming that you can judge them at all. The first thing I learned in choreography was that I have a very poor sense of use of space and proportion; before I took classes, I had no idea I had those deficiencies.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Why yes, because what I said was that I agreed with the judges absolutely, except I didn't

    What makes you an authority on, say, skating skills? Or choreography and interpretation? Everyone has an opinion; I see lots of people here asserting with great confidence that X should get this PCS and Y should get that PCS--yet what makes you so capable of determining those scores? I actually studied choreography at one point and I don't know exactly how one goes about assigning a number to choreography in skating, which is surely different from dance. And yes, I've read the criteria. It didn't help a whole lot. I mean:

    Purpose (idea, concept, vision)
    Proportion (equal weight of parts)
    Unity (purposeful threading)
    Utilization of personal and public space
    Pattern and ice coverage
    Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)
    Originality of purpose, movement and design
    Shared responsibility in achieving purpose (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)

    What numbers do you assign there and what do you base those number assignments on? Your overall impression of the program? Whether you liked it or not?

    But a lot of other people seem to know how it's done--and seem to think that there is no question that they are right, even when I read some of their posts and think "WTF?" You can't even judge a lot of those things if you are just watching on television, and that's assuming that you can judge them at all. The first thing I learned in choreography was that I have a very poor sense of use of space and proportion; before I took classes, I had no idea I had those deficiencies.
    Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I wasn't dictating that there were clear cut answers to all of these comparisons. Because there isn't (reason why I didn't ask whether Yuna deserved higher PCS in her LP compared to Carolina; there has been stark debate over this). However, all of us who have been watching skating for a long time have a general sense of what it means when someone says skating skills, transitions, choreography, and interpretation. And we all can see a difference in skating quality in those areas. Julia and Adelina simply don't have that same skating quality that Carolina, Mao, and Yuna possess.

    You bring up a good point, which I think we can all agree on. The current PCS guidelines are simply too vague to serve as more objective measure for determining PCS for a skater. At the moment, it is simply too subjective and not uniformly standardized from skater to skater. This whole idea of PCS needs to be restructured, and it's good that this might finally bring that.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    The quotes from Cinquanta go a long way toward showing the problem.



    The ISU simply has no concept of a problem with the appearance of conflict of interest. And they have no awareness of the problem in the appearance of passing off responsibility to member federations.

    A reasonable argument could be made for Adelina, Carolina or Yu Na as winner in Sochi. This was a close competition. In such a case the ISU's lack of concern with propriety as well as transparency undermines the legitimacy of the results. They need to consider this complaint seriously and move to change this institutional culture.

    If people don't like Adelina's win being brought into question, they need to look first and foremost at the ISU which leaves itself open to having the legitimacy of its results questioned by accepting a kind of insider culture that appears problematic to a lot of observers.
    The conflict of interest issue and Cinquanta's flippant dismissal of it is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. That is what the ISU needs to fix and fix quickly. It is a serious problem and it makes the sport look very bad.

    If you don't think so, imagine this happened: the son of a participating team's owner is the crew chief for the Super Bowl referees.

    Seriously...imagine how that would be perceived. Imagine the backlash in the media and with the public. And imagine yourself trying to justify it as completely fair to both teams. Most of us would not try.

    The bottom line is that there needs to be a serious push to clean up the ethics of judging. And eliminating conflicts of interest would be a huge first step. Piseev's wife should not be judging senior international competitions nor should any relative of any federation official from any country. If their relatives wish to judge, lower level competitions and national competitions should be as far as they are allowed. Judges caught cheating should be banned from judging ISU events for life. Period. If their own federations want to let them judge novice regionals or whatever, that is the federation's business; but they should never judge an international event on any level again. If they want to work ISU events, they can drive the zamboni or clean the locker rooms with the arena staff.

    The 2014 Games are over and the athletes took their medals home. Cleaning up the ethics in the ISU should not change any of those results and would only benefit the sport in the long term.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    trying to justify it as completely fair to both teams. Most of us would not try.

    The bottom line is that there needs to be a serious push to clean up the ethics of judging. And eliminating conflicts of interest would be a huge first step. Piseev's wife should not be judging senior international competitions nor should any relative of any federation official from any country. If their relatives wish to judge, lower level competitions and national competitions should be as far as they are allowed. Judges caught cheating should be banned from judging ISU events for life. Period. If their own federations want to let them judge novice regionals or whatever, that is the federation's business; but they should never judge an international event on any level again. If they want to work ISU events, they can drive the zamboni or clean the locker rooms with the arena staff.

    The 2014 Games are over and the athletes took their medals home. Cleaning up the ethics in the ISU should not change any of those results and would only benefit the sport in the long term.
    Well said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    The conflict of interest issue and Cinquanta's flippant dismissal of it is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. That is what the ISU needs to fix and fix quickly. It is a serious problem and it makes the sport look very bad.

    If you don't think so, imagine this happened: the son of a participating team's owner is the crew chief for the Super Bowl referees.

    Seriously...imagine how that would be perceived. Imagine the backlash in the media and with the public. And imagine yourself trying to justify it as completely fair to both teams. Most of us would not try.

    The bottom line is that there needs to be a serious push to clean up the ethics of judging. And eliminating conflicts of interest would be a huge first step. Piseev's wife should not be judging senior international competitions nor should any relative of any federation official from any country. If their relatives wish to judge, lower level competitions and national competitions should be as far as they are allowed. Judges caught cheating should be banned from judging ISU events for life. Period. If their own federations want to let them judge novice regionals or whatever, that is the federation's business; but they should never judge an international event on any level again. If they want to work ISU events, they can drive the zamboni or clean the locker rooms with the arena staff.

    The 2014 Games are over and the athletes took their medals home. Cleaning up the ethics in the ISU should not change any of those results and would only benefit the sport in the long term.

    Great post, I completely agree. It would have been so easy for the ISU to avoid what happened in Sochi. They could have reviewed the judges put forth by the federations for obvious conflicts of interest/past transgressions; they should be having ongoing coaching anyway for judges in how to consistently, defensibly mark GOE and PCS and avoid undue influence from crowds and officials. But apparently, they didn't do any of this, or if they did, they didn't do a good enough job. The ISU brought this on itself. They need to clean up their act, plain and simple.

  9. #69
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    To prancer.
    Th skating skills and transitions are very clear PCS and any judge should clear identify them. The problem with Adelina's scores is that her very poor execution of the turns in her footwork (watch it slow motion, tons of edge changes when they supposed to be held, not edge control and even stumble from a twizzle) that is very obvious to any skating coach but for some reason ; -) was completely ignored by judges and tech panel. Also this they managed to put in the tech panel vice president of the Russian skating federation - Lakernik? Why nobody even raises this question? And there were very little transitions in both Adelina's and Yuna's programs. And somehow everybody think that Adelina had more difficult program. You know what - skating clean turns and holding them is way more difficult then scratching and two footing and shallow edging a program. That is why it is so upsetting this kind of skating got rewarded at the Olympics. Skaters spend years to work on it and then judges just ignore it and don't even reflect it in the marks properly. It is not about Adelina winning it is about scoring properly what is done on the ice. That is my opinion as a skater and coach.
    I'm Russian and knowing the whole behind the scene situation and also given political atmosphere in Russia I totally see this Oly competition as a bought out by the Government. There are many ways to control judges at that level. Especially so many of them in many countries now a days are 'former' Russian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    However, all of us who have been watching skating for a long time have a general sense of what it means when someone says skating skills, transitions, choreography, and interpretation. And we all can see a difference in skating quality in those areas. Julia and Adelina simply don't have that same skating quality that Carolina, Mao, and Yuna possess.
    Ah. Well, I've only been a skating fan since 1972; maybe I need to put in a few more years and then I too will be absolutely sure of my assessment ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    You bring up a good point, which I think we can all agree on. The current PCS guidelines are simply too vague to serve as more objective measure for determining PCS for a skater. At the moment, it is simply too subjective and not uniformly standardized from skater to skater. This whole idea of PCS needs to be restructured, and it's good that this might finally bring that.
    I don't think there is any way around subjectivity in the PCS; you are judging quality, after all, and often artistic quality. And while I think that can be done to some degree, I don't think it is possible to precisely calibrate each element of PCS to numeric scales. And I think CoP has done enough to detract from the artistic quality of skating already. I would hate to see it lose even more while people try to force a number assignment on something like Personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by sfahrut View Post
    To prancer.
    Th skating skills and transitions are very clear PCS and any judge should clear identify them.
    Of all the PCS components, sure, those two are the easiest to quantify. And they are also only two of the components.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    The ladies event wasn't the only one with sketchy judging. I hope more federations speak out though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I don't think there is any way around subjectivity in the PCS; you are judging quality, after all, and often artistic quality.
    Good point. At the end of the day, figure skating is a judged sport. As such, there has never in history been a figure skating competition that was scored in a way everyone was happy with. People are entitled to their opinions about PCS, but if you call an investigation into judging every time some people think PCS was either too high or too low for a particular skater, then literally every single ISU competition would have to be investigated.

    Yuna is someone who has been scored fairly (or occasionally slightly overscored) throughout her career, in contrast to consistently lowballed skaters like Kevin Reynolds, Denis Ten or Li Zijun. Mao Asada has also gotten many ridiculous UR calls (like Worlds 2010 when she did three clean looking 3As and two were downgraded; that was back when there was no 70% rule, so Mao lost around 5 points for each downgrade). So I think it's a bit much for the KSF to call into question the judging system, the same system that has as been very fair to Yuna throughout her career (probably more fair to Yuna than any other ladies skater in terms of PCS and GOE), the one time they were unhappy with the scoring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    You bring up a good point, which I think we can all agree on. The current PCS guidelines are simply too vague to serve as more objective measure for determining PCS for a skater. At the moment, it is simply too subjective and not uniformly standardized from skater to skater. This whole idea of PCS needs to be restructured, and it's good that this might finally bring that.
    The PCS guidelines can be cleaned up, yes, but as long as there are judges with questionable affiliations (or perceived to be questionable affiliations) awarding those PCS, the judging problems are not going to go away. And that was what was wrong with IJS in the first place. The system was changed/improved, but the historical and well-documented problems with judges being unduly influenced were not addressed in any meaningful way. And as long as the ISU is unwilling to address the issues around the judges themselves, there are going to be problems with the judging, and the perception of skating as a fixed sport is going to continue.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    I don't know if either this document or this one will help shed any light on the marking of PCS but it might be a place to start in understanding what the judges are supposed to be looking at when marking.

    Regardless, if the sport appears to be dirty and/or fixed then it's time to make changes. Actually it's been a long time overdue.
    Crazy about sports!

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    The PCS guidelines can be cleaned up, yes, but as long as there are judges with questionable affiliations (or perceived to be questionable affiliations) awarding those PCS, the judging problems are not going to go away. And that was what was wrong with IJS in the first place. The system was changed/improved, but the historical and well-documented problems with judges being unduly influenced were not addressed in any meaningful way. And as long as the ISU is unwilling to address the issues around the judges themselves, there are going to be problems with the judging, and the perception of skating as a fixed sport is going to continue.
    In a judged sport, there will always be subjectivity no matter how many guidelines we create. However, any judging system can be improved, and I think we can all agree that the current system could be infinitely better by making a number of changes (like what you said and what others have pointed out).

    I think the other thing that needs to be addressed is the subjectivity of the technical specialists. Even within one event, they'll be very strict towards some skaters while being very lenient towards others (a good example being Rachael's two flips in Vancouver compared to Miki's second lutz).

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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    I don't know if either this document or this one will help shed any light on the marking of PCS but it might be a place to start in understanding what the judges are supposed to be looking at when marking.
    Yes, I've read all those before, many times. It's not that I can't read the criteria; it's that I don't see how most of the criteria can be translated into anything like an objective, quantifiable score.

    To put it into terms with which you would be familiar, if no one else would be, some things cannot be scored by a rubric.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Of all the PCS components, sure, those two are the easiest to quantify. And they are also only two of the components.
    Yes. Only two but every hundred of a point counts. Judges can not give marks whatever they want or pressured or whatever fits into the "corridor". Is not it supposed to be judged against some "ideal" or standard? Not against other skaters? Why do they have those educational videos about skating skills for the judges with the examples of the bad and great. They just ignore them. Do you think Adelina deserved 9.18 against Yuna's 9.21, Carolina's 9.14 (!!!! she should be above both) and Mao's 8.75!!!!!!??? Seriously? Just because somebody is bubbly on the ice don't give them near perfect skills if they don't have them.

    Adelina's footwork was nowhere executed for a level 4 but she even was awarded higher GOEs for it. For what? For the counters that changed edge into them (which makes them 3turns btw) or for not holding exits from the turns? All of her clusters were almost straight lines. What kind of edge quality? I don't even want to start about GOEs for the jumps. One need 6 (!) bullets to get +3 GOE for a jump. Just height is not enough to get +3.

    A lot of little things were judged like this. And every hundred of a point counts, it is a points system. For a regular viewer all those little details are not detectable. Most will just see one skater is more flowy the other more bouncy. IJS was designed to reward all "the little things" but it was not used properly at OLYs. Ask any skater and they will tell you how much more tiring to skate a clean program with all the jumps if you have to care about quality of the turns and quality of the edge. Over last few years we saw a great improvement in judging at local competitions and even qualifying competitions in the US and most international are alright too. But when it comes to Olympics that "other" rules are applied, political. And it is very discouraging for skaters and professionals. Russian president needed that medal count win at Sochi Olys to secure his power and "tough" image in the country. I'm pretty sure all the officials were well "herded" and "groomed" in the last 4 years to make Russia win in as many skating events as possible. It is very easy to do. In Russia everything is done like that. "Do it for me,- I will do that for you". Nothing can be done unless you "butter" it. Behind the scene of cause. One little call here, one promise of an extra assignment to judge, one extra seminar there for a tech, a little gift or a bit of pressure for stubborn. This Olympic win was essential for the Russian powers. You have no idea about the depth of the nationalism on the border of chauvinism cultivated in Russia in a recent years. The discussions in Russian boards and the names they use for Americans Even my relatives in Russia, I can't talk to them as everything is "we are the best, everybody against Russia" attitude. They keep asking me is American media writes bad about Russia and if Americans hate Russians. That is what being fed to them. Cold war. Olympic win is just a catalyst that was needed to secure this position. Now see what is happening with Crimea. This is not even sad anymore, it is scary.

    Sorry, just vented out everything I held up after the Games. All I just want it to be at least close to fair judging. All the skaters work really hard toward their dream and this dream turns to be a dirty reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Just wondering if all of the "I am no YunaBot" posters would change their song and support Caro for Gold and Yuna for Bronze.

    That will happen when Hell freezes over.
    well, "I am no YunaBot" so I'd be perfectly fine with that result.

    Hell might freeze over, but that's more likely due to global warming than any opinions I have on ladies skating results!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveemoticons View Post
    Good point. At the end of the day, figure skating is a judged sport. As such, there has never in history been a figure skating competition that was scored in a way everyone was happy with. People are entitled to their opinions about PCS, but if you call an investigation into judging every time some people think PCS was either too high or too low for a particular skater, then literally every single ISU competition would have to be investigated.

    Yuna is someone who has been scored fairly (or occasionally slightly overscored) throughout her career, in contrast to consistently lowballed skaters like Kevin Reynolds, Denis Ten or Li Zijun. Mao Asada has also gotten many ridiculous UR calls (like Worlds 2010 when she did three clean looking 3As and two were downgraded; that was back when there was no 70% rule, so Mao lost around 5 points for each downgrade). So I think it's a bit much for the KSF to call into question the judging system, the same system that has as been very fair to Yuna throughout her career (probably more fair to Yuna than any other ladies skater in terms of PCS and GOE), the one time they were unhappy with the scoring.

    An investigation wasn't called after every ISU event where some people weren't happy about all the PCS,
    It was called after THIS event, Where an overwhelming amount of people thought the controversial scoring was too much to ignore.

    the KSF didn't call into question the judging system following other events, Wether Yuna won or lost them (And she lost quite a few)
    They called it into question after THIS event, Where an overwhelming amount of people thought the controversial scoring was too much to ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveemoticons View Post
    Good point. At the end of the day, figure skating is a judged sport. As such, there has never in history been a figure skating competition that was scored in a way everyone was happy with. People are entitled to their opinions about PCS, but if you call an investigation into judging every time some people think PCS was either too high or too low for a particular skater, then literally every single ISU competition would have to be investigated.

    Yuna is someone who has been scored fairly (or occasionally slightly overscored) throughout her career, in contrast to consistently lowballed skaters like Kevin Reynolds, Denis Ten or Li Zijun. Mao Asada has also gotten many ridiculous UR calls (like Worlds 2010 when she did three clean looking 3As and two were downgraded; that was back when there was no 70% rule, so Mao lost around 5 points for each downgrade). So I think it's a bit much for the KSF to call into question the judging system, the same system that has as been very fair to Yuna throughout her career (probably more fair to Yuna than any other ladies skater in terms of PCS and GOE), the one time they were unhappy with the scoring.
    I agree with this. Probably somehow Yuna got the most benefits of this biased judging system more than anybody in the past. That doesn't mean she was cheating, no. She is one of the best skaters technically and artistically in history. That's the truth.
    The problem is the anonymous judging system, and we can't really tell what happened. The biased judging affects the entire whole competition, not just between Adelina and Yuna.
    I can't believe that so many people signed the petition about only Yuna and Adelina's placements. I think those people don't really see how other skaters performed at the Sochi Olympic and they would have been misplaced as well.
    In the perfect world the real OGM could gone to somebody else neither Adelica nor Yuna.
    However, I hope filing the complaint by the S Korean Skating Federation is a good opportunity to reconsider the anonymous judging system.

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