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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    ...
    But I think Cinquanta has a point as well--you have a limited pool of judges. Those judges come from a very small world where everyone knows everyone else. Where are you going to find judges who don't come from this insider culture and don't have connections to others within that same world?
    Even with the small pool of judges the wife of the General Director of the Russian Skating Federation could be excluded from an Olympic panel.

    I don't think excluding her would have changed the results but it certainly would have removed an appearance of conflict of interest. But to me the very fact that Cinquanta dismisses the issue so cavalierly is indicative of the institutional culture that is a problem.

    You have a small pool of judges. You need to put into place processes that do the most given that constraint to limit the appearance of conflict of interest and excessive insider relations. You won't be able to do that to everyone's satisfaction but I think some effort in that direction would help improve the ISU's credibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post


    I gotta say, It feels a lot like a couple of people just recorded themselves over the event

    Is this actual Italian commentary? Maybe i should learn Italian
    Yes the commentary is genuine from Sky Italia. The commentary can be verified here
    http://www.tvblog.it/post/517359/soc...di-21-febbraio

    The commentators are : Silvia Fontana (2 time Olympian and retired figure skater subbed in white... + really lucky to be married to the gorgeous John Zimmerman), Danilo Freri (subbed blue) and Massimiliano Ambesi (subbed green). I visit Italy alot, lovely food, people, weather, style about everything, especially their way with languages. Everything sound tons more passionate, emotional and real. I thought they did a great job with this commentary, correctly identified many issues with the judging, GOEs, PCS, Levels, very knowledgeable about the sport and far from politically correct unlike NBC's broadcast.

    In fact every broadcast seems more genuine and less self censored than NBC from my surveying of the BBC, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Australia and Chinese media. I am not sure about Russia, but you got that interview with the guy leaving 15 years of sport commentating completely confounded with how Adelina gained 14 PCS points in a matter of few weeks. So there you go.
    Last edited by os168; 03-22-2014 at 12:17 AM.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    As for the Balkov part give me a break. Someone like Jean Senft was blackballed by life by him and his cronies for exposing Balkov's corruption but he was back by next season.
    Senft currently is an ISU Championship Referee for dance (2014 Four Continents) and ISU judge for singles/pairs.

    Source link (ISU Communication No. 1812): http://static.isu.org/media/107397/1...ated-oct-8.pdf

    ETA a 2002 TIME interview with Jean Senft (pre-IJS) that includes this excerpt:
    TIME: What kind of action would you recommend the ISU take?

    Senft: I think they should move to having judges who are part of an independent association. They should no longer be assigned to judge these events according to their national federation. I also think judges should be hired and fired on the basis of competence.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 03-22-2014 at 12:21 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #44

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    The current judges selection process need to be improved or be scratched all together and start again.

    The judges are currently selected by the federations, and draw by ISU to see if they get to judge at the sp, lp or both. However, to ensure true impartiality and no conflict of interests, these judges must be removed from the agendas set forth by their own federation who will pressure them to judge certain ways that is artificial more than honest.

    If we have a judging organisation that is independent of ISU and judge's own federation powers. Remove anonymity, improve transparency and accountability, then I bet the overall quality of judging can be improved, more objective and trusted by the skaters as well as the public. The sport doesn't have trust that is why it is losing audiences.

    Let's say if Gracie is a run away leader leading the race for PyeongChang in 4 years, but we ends up having a panel of judges consist of Russia, China, Korea, Italy, Canada, Japan, France, Estonia, no American, all have their own skaters they desperately want to podium. We have the ISU who is looking to renew their lucrative contract with European Broadcast Union and like to prefer putting a European Champion on the stand. Lots of conflict of interest there (BTW ISU did infact just renewed their 5 year contract with EBU after Sochi). Now with all the federations all vying for the Gold, do you honest think it wouldn't affect all these federation agenda assigned judge's mark for Gracie? A few federations can always work together behind close doors and the currently system perfectly allow them to get away with it. I bet you all of a sudden Gracie's score either through GOEs or PCS or even mysteriously levels will be affected, even by a 1 or 2 ordinal points repressed here and there while some of her competitors can see hikes/inflation not dissimilar to the Russian skaters at Sochi.

    If however, say we have a separate judging organisation that is independent of ISU and under the jurisdiction of IOC only. The judges are draw completely random regardless of nationality as long as they avoids all conflict of interest with the main contenders at the competition. I guarantee you the judging will be a lot fairer and objective, especially if anonymity is removed and judges are no longer pressured to mark certain ways.

    Here is a list of all the ISU qualified judges in the world, surely there are enough candidates to put together an unbiased impartial panel with no conflict of interest, not to support any federation agenda or biases.

    http://static.isu.org/media/107397/1...ated-oct-8.pdf

    The fact this is not done, says alot about ISU as an organisation that is suppose to look after the interest of this sport and all athletes.
    Last edited by os168; 03-22-2014 at 01:08 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said. “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest.

    “I can’t suspend a person for life for a minor violation. (Balkov) is a matter for the Ukraine federation because they chose to send him.”
    How hypocritical... He asks whether one wants an idiot as a judge or a good judge who's a relative of someone within the federation, and then says that it's better to have a good judge than a judge who's a relative of someone in the federation. So basically, he says neither an idiot or a good judge with connections to his question, and yet he says that he can't suspend someone for a "minor" violation. Please.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    The current judges selection process need to be improved or be scratched all together and start again.

    The judges are currently selected by the federations, and draw by ISU to see if they get to judge at the sp, lp or both. However, to ensure true impartiality and no conflict of interests, these judges must be removed from the agendas set forth by their own federation who will pressure them to judge certain ways that is artificial more than honest.

    If we have a judging organisation that is independent of ISU and judge's own federation powers. Remove anonymity, improve transparency and accountability, then I bet the overall quality of judging can be improved, more objective and trusted by the skaters as well as the public. The sport doesn't have trust that is why it is losing audiences.

    Let's say if Gracie is a run away leader leading the race for PyeongChang in 4 years, but we ends up having a panel of judges consist of Russia, China, Korea, Italy, Canada, Japan, France, Estonia, no American, all have their own skaters they desperately want to podium. We have the ISU who is looking to renew their lucrative contract with European Broadcast Union and like to prefer putting a European Champion on the stand. Lots of conflict of interest there (BTW ISU did infact just renewed their 5 year contract with EBU after Sochi). Now with all the federations all vying for the Gold, do you honest think it wouldn't affect all these federation agenda assigned judge's mark for Gracie? A few federations can always work together behind close doors and the currently system perfectly allow them to get away with it. I bet you all of a sudden Gracie's score either through GOEs or PCS or even mysteriously levels will be affected, even by a 1 or 2 ordinal points repressed here and there while some of her competitors can see hikes/inflation not dissimilar to the Russian skaters at Sochi.

    If however, say we have a separate judging organisation that is independent of ISU and under the jurisdiction of IOC only. The judges are draw completely random regardless of nationality as long as they avoids all conflict of interest with the main contenders at the competition. I guarantee you the judging will be a lot fairer and objective, especially if anonymity is removed and judges are no longer pressured to mark certain ways.

    Here is a list of all the ISU qualified judges in the world, surely there are enough candidates to put together an unbiased impartial panel with no conflict of interest, not to support any federation agenda or biases.

    http://static.isu.org/media/107397/1...ated-oct-8.pdf

    The fact this is not done, says alot about ISU as an organisation that is suppose to look after the interest of this sport and all athletes.
    That's what I think also... There are definitely more judges around than what some of these officials have said.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    What's the difference between an ISU judge and an international judge?
    ISU judges can judge the 4 ISU Championships (Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds) plus the Olympics and Grand Prix Final.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    If we have a judging organisation that is independent of ISU and judge's own federation powers. Remove anonymity, improve transparency and accountability, then I bet the overall quality of judging can be improved, more objective and trusted by the skaters as well as the public. The sport doesn't have trust that is why it is losing audiences.
    ...

    If however, say we have a separate judging organisation that is independent of ISU and under the jurisdiction of IOC only. The judges are draw completely random regardless of nationality as long as they avoids all conflict of interest with the main contenders at the competition. I guarantee you the judging will be a lot fairer and objective, especially if anonymity is removed and judges are no longer pressured to mark certain ways.
    Nice fantasy.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 03-22-2014 at 01:35 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    ISU judges can judge the 4 ISU Championships (Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds) plus the Olympics and Grand Prix Final.

    ETA:

    Nice fantasy.
    What can I say, I am a dreamer Otherwise why will I come back to this sport even it had already broke my heart in 2002.

    Sad reality is nothing will change as long as Speedy and his cronies are in power.

  9. #49

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    I know the USFSA is pushing to end anonymous judging, but I really don't think that's the problem here. It's not hard to figure out who favors who, and putting a name to the marks isn't going to significantly change the marks. Favoritism was an issue when marks were not anonymous.

    Sochi has proven that the judges, who are effectively agents of the federation, are incapable of properly assessing GOE. If you want to be nice, it's incompetence. If you are cynical, it's a deliberate, willful manipulation of the scoring system. I mean, one judge gave Kostner a +2 for her 3 jump combination in the Sochi FP. Others have mentioned the +GOE for V/T's throws. These are indefensible marks, period.

    If only one change is made, I hope it's switching responsibility for GOE from the judges to the professionals, the callers/technical specialists. If need be, (ok, this is more than one change now), expand their number to 5 and reduce the judges to 7. While we're at it, take a page from Diving (a judged sport with relatively few judging scandals) and bar judges from the top 6 countries in that discipline as determined by the season's best scores.

    What is most striking to me about the marks from Sochi is that there is a lot of agreement amongst the judges. I really don't think national favoritism was the problem here. Pre-determination of each contender's worth, their maximum or minimum scores, their rank relative to the other competitors, that was the problem.
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  10. #50
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    “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said. “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest.
    So the opinion of the head of this organisation is that when choosing judges, You're better off with someone affiliated rather then an alleged idiot, Because out of all the judges out there, We can't possibly except to find about a dozen who are neither ... ?

    I think his two examples are extremely incriminating, You'd think he'd be better rehearsed to answer these questions, And then again, It doesn't matter to anyone cause who even cares about this sport, We can even find a bunch of people in this very community who would rather sabotage an effort to investigate in the claim that it's a "Cry baby sour loser" move, So there you go.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    ISU judges can judge the 4 ISU Championships (Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds) plus the Olympics and Grand Prix Final.

    ETA:

    Nice fantasy.
    Lol, after I asked that, I remembered that I read about the different types of judges on an international stage before. So then my question has always been, how is it determined that one judge is going to be an ISU judge while the others will be international judges?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I know the USFSA is pushing to end anonymous judging, but I really don't think that's the problem here. It's not hard to figure out who favors who, and putting a name to the marks isn't going to significantly change the marks. Favoritism was an issue when marks were not anonymous.

    Sochi has proven that the judges, who are effectively agents of the federation, are incapable of properly assessing GOE. If you want to be nice, it's incompetence. If you are cynical, it's a deliberate, willful manipulation of the scoring system. I mean, one judge gave Kostner a +2 for her 3 jump combination in the Sochi FP. Others have mentioned the +GOE for V/T's throws. These are indefensible marks, period.

    If only one change is made, I hope it's switching responsibility for GOE from the judges to the professionals, the callers/technical specialists. If need be, (ok, this is more than one change now), expand their number to 5 and reduce the judges to 7. While we're at it, take a page from Diving (a judged sport with relatively few judging scandals) and bar judges from the top 6 countries in that discipline as determined by the season's best scores.

    What is most striking to me about the marks from Sochi is that there is a lot of agreement amongst the judges. I really don't think national favoritism was the problem here. Pre-determination of each contender's worth, their maximum or minimum scores, their rank relative to the other competitors, that was the problem.
    That's what I was thinking too. Yuna's second triple lutz nearly got all +2s across the board also. I remember in Beijing, during one of the qualifying rounds in diving, a Chinese judge was kicked off the panel for deliberately giving higher scores to the Chinese divers compared to what the other judges gave the same dive. Obviously, figure skating judges are having some kind of talk before each competition because there is no way they could unanimously agree on some of these questionable calls.

  12. #52
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    If I remember correctly, the Vice President of the Korean Skating Fed (she wasn't just related to a KSF official, she WAS the KSF official) was a judge for both the ladies SP and LP in the Vancouver Olympics. The KSF was fine with that. Also, the judging panel was announced before the event took place. If they had a complaint about the judging panel, they should have raised the issue before the event, not after.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    A lot of people have raised questions regarding the Sochi competition.

    I think the specific complaint filed by the Korean federation addresses some of the questions people have raised about conflicts of interests by the judges.

    The existence of people's questions doesn't by itself call into question the results but it is worth the ISU giving consideration to them. I don't think that any investigation is going to lead to any alteration of results, but if there are steps they can take in the future to reduce the appearance of conflicts of interest, it would be a good thing.
    I would echo this.

    Results cannot be overtunred anyway. A winner is a winner. Adelina is and forever will be known as OGM in Sochi. What is important is that they leave no room for doubts about people who reward the winners.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    That's what I was thinking too. Yuna's second triple lutz nearly got all +2s across the board also. I remember in Beijing, during one of the qualifying rounds in diving, a Chinese judge was kicked off the panel for deliberately giving higher scores to the Chinese divers compared to what the other judges gave the same dive. Obviously, figure skating judges are having some kind of talk before each competition because there is no way they could unanimously agree on some of these questionable calls.
    So a diving judge was kicked off a judging panel for giving scores that were out of line with the other judges on the same dives. And that was a bad thing.

    But in figure skating, agreement in scores between the judges on the same move is a bad thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Mind you, it is an intentional reaction not to buy a Korean product based on the continuing lack of sportsmanship from a particular nation.

    In fact I will send a message to Samsung informing them of my purchasing decision based on the poor sportsmanship of their client.

    If I gave a crap am sure I could start an online petition belittling Yuna and Koreans.....am sure a few million Russians would sign it.

    What's the point?
    To appear stupid on purpose?
    If you talk about poor sportsmanship you probably mean the Sotnikova's "gold" medal. So you'd better not to buy Russian products.

  16. #56
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    As they should! Those PCS marks were outrageous and totally unjustifiable. Yet, a blind eye will be turned and the value of the sport will continue its fall.

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    A lot of negativity on this thread. But I support this move by the Korean federation, for many reasons. Anything that increases pressure on the ISU to reform judging, improve judge selection, and repeal judges' anonymity is a good thing, IMO anyway.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    So a diving judge was kicked off a judging panel for giving scores that were out of line with the other judges on the same dives. And that was a bad thing.

    But in figure skating, agreement in scores between the judges on the same move is a bad thing?
    Like I explained later on in my post, agreement in scores is a bad thing when all the judges unanimously agree on a very questionable call. Yuna's second lutz was quite scratchy on the landing and was not worthy of a +2, let alone a +3 that one judge gave her. And other skaters who were given outrageous PCS in comparison to skaters who received lower PCS for better skating quality, choreography, and interpretation says a lot about the questionable quality of the judging as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    A lot of negativity on this thread. But I support this move by the Korean federation, for many reasons. Anything that increases pressure on the ISU to reform judging, improve judge selection, and repeal judges' anonymity is a good thing, IMO anyway.
    ITA

    I don't expect much to come of this as the ISU has built themselves a very cushy castle of imperviousness. The sports popularity has also depended strongly on fandom of the individual athletes, and as the negativity expressed here proves, fans don't mind cheating just as long as their favorite skaters benefit from it.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    ITA

    I don't expect much to come of this as the ISU has built themselves a very cushy castle of imperviousness. The sports popularity has also depended strongly on fandom of the individual athletes, and as the negativity expressed here proves, fans don't mind cheating just as long as their favorite skaters benefit from it.
    What if ISU conducted a "legitimate review" (excuse the oxymoron) of the Ladies event in Sochi changed the podium to this:

    Gold - Carolina
    Silver - Adelina
    Bronze - Yuna

    Wouldn't that be interesting

    Just wondering if all of the "I am no YunaBot" posters would change their song and support Caro for Gold and Yuna for Bronze.

    That will happen when Hell freezes over.

    This is about one thing and I don't think some here want fair judging unless if includes Yuna being declared winner of a second OGM, the greatest of all-time, better than Sonja, Witt, Kwan.

    Short of that their dreams have been crushed. Life as they know it has ceased to have meaning and for them top is bottom, light is dark, and they hear nothing but atonal music in the elevators and supermarkets.

    We now have a chance to run a social experiment and can find out "if time really does heal all wounds."

    Somehow I doubt if this great wound suffered by Yuna's fans will go away in our lifetime.

    Yuna appears to have moved on and wishing for, hoping and expecting even greater things from Yuna in her post-skating career.
    Last edited by MrLucky; 03-22-2014 at 03:08 PM.

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