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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Korea voted to keep secret judging.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternitygoddess View Post
    I'm hoping it's bc they don't want any transparency in 2018.
    Everyone keeps on bringing up the idea of getting rid of secret judging, but what exactly is that supposed to do? So we can put a face with some numbers again? So we can go on and on about some Vanessa Riley like judge who gives out absurd marks? It doesn't do anything. Vanessa was criticized her whole career for the marks she gave, and she didn't give a crap about what everyone else thought.

    We had a more transparent system under the 6.0, and it didn't work. That's the whole reason why we got secret judging in the first place. Putting a face with a set of scores isn't going to help solve this issue much if at all. More needs to be done if we're going to get out of the judging mess we're in.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Korea voted to keep secret judging.
    Could you give us the link that shows us this, by any chance?

  4. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by jiejie View Post
    I think the KSU's lukewarm effort and willingness to not create a public superstink had every bit to do with the politics and protection of their speed skating vis a vis the ISU, more than figure skating. Korean Skating Union represents both sports. I'm sure the figure skating side of the KSU is still plenty sore about Sochi, and IMO they are justified.
    ^^This. Despite the popularity of Queen Yuna, short track figure skating is a way more popular sport than figure skating in Korea. And given that Queen Yuna won't be a competitive skater forever, the KSU as a whole is likely thinking of protecting the interests of the sport that has longer-term potential.

    And BTW, the complaints by the KSU about the figure skating judging were both about the composition of the panel, not about anonymous judging. So for the KSU to vote to keep secret judging was not hypocrisy. Please go and read the substance of the actual complaints before throwing those words around.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    smarts1, the link to the vote results is in Great Skate Debate in the ISU congress thread on post 110.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJH View Post
    smarts1, the link to the vote results is in Great Skate Debate in the ISU congress thread on post 110.
    Thanks!

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    It was for the most part.
    Actually, you're wrong. Even if 90% of the 2 million who signed the petition were Korean (which is what Chang.org stated) -- that would mean over 200,000 non-Koreans signed the petition.

    Try and find 200,000 people to attend ISU events next year at all levels and all competitions combined. I bet you won't be able to, and not because of arena capacity either. The stands are mostly empty.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    Actually, you're wrong. Even if 90% of the 2 million who signed the petition were Korean (which is what Chang.org stated) -- that would mean over 200,000 non-Koreans signed the petition.
    If we are going to be precisely correct about things, it would mean that 200K signatures were made from computers (likely) not in Korea.

    Unless the signatures are verified, there is no way of knowing how many people actually signed the petition; it could have been one Korean with a bot and 200K North Americans or 1.8 million Koreans and 1 American with a bot, or any number of other possibilities. Which is why it's kind of ridiculous to cite the petition anyway, but there you are. People do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    Try and find 200,000 people to attend ISU events next year at all levels and all competitions combined. I bet you won't be able to, and not because of arena capacity either. The stands are mostly empty.
    I'm not sure what point you are making here--is it that 200,000 people outside of South Korea cared enough to watch the Olympics and respond but clearly don't give a rat's ass about skating the rest of the time? If so, I'd say there's some truth to that. One has only to look at the ratings for the Olympics in ANY Winter Olympic year versus the number of people who actually attend events to see that far more people watch figure skating during the Olympics than attend events.

    If that wasn't your point, perhaps you could provide me with some (legitimate) data showing me when Olympic viewership correlated with event attendance?

    And could you explain why you think your statement somehow negates allezfred's argument that the issue was mostly nationalistic?
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Korea voted to keep secret judging.
    Well now if that don't beat all.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    If we are going to be precisely correct about things, it would mean that 200K signatures were made from computers (likely) not in Korea.

    Unless the signatures are verified, there is no way of knowing how many people actually signed the petition; it could have been one Korean with a bot and 200K North Americans or 1.8 million Koreans and 1 American with a bot, or any number of other possibilities. Which is why it's kind of ridiculous to cite the petition anyway, but there you are. People do.
    Change.org has no greater issues with false signatures than any other petition campaign that has ever taken place. A google search turns up no fraud issues with any change.org initiative, including the one that got George Zimmerman arrested for murder (also had over 2 million signatures). It requires a more extensive sign-up process than just giving them a hotmail account you created 2 minutes earlier, if I recall correctly. In addition, the petition was only one way that outcry was expressed at the Sochi results, and it was taken seriously enough to be front page headlines on major international news outlets the following day, and forced NBC to devote extensive air-time to "explaining away" the results in subsequent broadcasts. The Koreans specifically cited the petition when they announced plans to protest against the ISU (they said "we can't have millions of our people signing petitions and be seen to do nothing").

    Apparently, the majority of the world considered the petition as a legitimate outcry by over 2 million people, and the people who follow these things were able to monitor the feedback as it came in, and rather than it being a "bot attack" the signatures came in gradually in waves over a period of hours and days and now weeks and months to the present.

    While not everyone who signed may have done so with the same veracity or even much knowledge of figure skating, I think it's delusional and says more about you than anything else if you question whether plus or minus two million real individual people signed it. A lot of them were Koreans, but there were hundreds of thousands of non-Koreans who signed as well. And I was one of them, and took a lot of pride when I saw many names from other western countries, that people who have no national agenda and nothing to gain could see a wrong and injustice done and be willing to speak out against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I'm not sure what point you are making here--is it that 200,000 people outside of South Korea cared enough to watch the Olympics and respond but clearly don't give a rat's ass about skating the rest of the time? If so, I'd say there's some truth to that.
    It never ceases to amaze me how long time entrenched members of the figure skating community, such as yourself, are so quick tell large numbers of people to essentially f-off.
    "You don't want to watch figure skating? Fine. We don't need you."
    "200,000 who hardly ever watch figure skating anyway? Who cares? We don't need those people."

    Uh, millions of people (potential fans) are telling you that your sport sucks. It's rigged. It's corrupt. It blows. They are telling you that you have a scoring system that rewards crap performances, and they are sick of watching people fall on their ass for 4+ minutes. And as a result, they don't want to watch your sport, and some people who previously enjoyed it also don't want to watch your sport. And so your response is usually the same ... "fine, we don't want you."

    Meanwhile successful sports do everything they can (within reason) to attract new interest. But not figure skating. They just like to bitch about it dying once or twice a year, but do nothing about it.

    And could you explain why you think your statement somehow negates allezfred's argument that the issue was mostly nationalistic?
    I mean, it shouldn't need to be said. There are a lot of Koreans who know nothing about figure skating and were protesting because of national interests, sure.

    And then there were a lot of international people who have no Korean interests whatsoever, but we have a working brain and could see that, regardless of who won, there was clearly a conspiracy in place, in most of the disciplines, to fix the results, as there always seems to be.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    we have a working brain
    Are you all sharing the one brain? That figures.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  12. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Hypocrisy at its finest. And further proof that the hue and cry was just because Precious Yuna lost.
    Thank you.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  13. #373
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    Of course it was because Kim lost. Why else would a Fed stick its neck out and piss off the ISU and judges and Federations who could screw over their skaters in the future, especially with a home Olympics coming up? Or in this case, stick a toe in the water with a pro-forma protest to shut up the popular uproar at home, while protecting the sport the Fed favors and really cares about, along with the public.

    Federations have reasons to exist, and personifying Joan of Arc isn't one of them. Change happens when the collective self-interest is strong enough to overturn the status quo. This isn't a change the Fed was behind in the first place, and the official protest had zero to do with anonymous judging, which has already been pointed out.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 06-13-2014 at 09:28 PM.
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  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    Change.org has no greater issues with false signatures than any other petition campaign that has ever taken place. A google search turns up no fraud issues with any change.org initiative, including the one that got George Zimmerman arrested for murder (also had over 2 million signatures).
    You think George Zimmerman was arrested because of an online petition?

    For there to be fraud issues with Change.org's petitions, someone would actually have had to have gone through the signatures on multiple petitions to verify the signatures. Has anyone ever bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    Apparently, the majority of the world considered the petition as a legitimate outcry by over 2 million people
    Evidence, please, that the majority of the seven billion people in the world care in any way who won the ladies' event in Sochi?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    Uh, millions of people (potential fans) are telling you that your sport sucks. It's rigged. It's corrupt. It blows. They are telling you that you have a scoring system that rewards crap performances, and they are sick of watching people fall on their ass for 4+ minutes. And as a result, they don't want to watch your sport, and some people who previously enjoyed it also don't want to watch your sport. And so your response is usually the same ... "fine, we don't want you."

    Meanwhile successful sports do everything they can (within reason) to attract new interest. But not figure skating. They just like to bitch about it dying once or twice a year, but do nothing about it.
    I don't bitch about it dying ever, thanks; I leave that to people who think that skating could be popular if only. Skating's popularity is dying in the United States, but most sports in the United States have lost fans, including big-time sports like football. People have a lot of options. And figure skating has always been something of a joke to the general public. Yeah, it went through a brief period of great popularity in the US. But people have moved on and skating has gone back to being the niche sport it was before that brief shining moment. Meanwhile, skating is still quite popular in some other places--in spite of the rigging and corruption.

    It never ceases to amaze me that people think skating would be popular in the US if only the judging weren't an issue. Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToFarAwayTimes View Post
    And then there were a lot of international people who have no Korean interests whatsoever, but we have a working brain and could see that, regardless of who won, there was clearly a conspiracy in place, in most of the disciplines, to fix the results, as there always seems to be.
    Ah, so anyone with a working brain can see the obvious, making an actual argument moot. Gotcha. Well, I will leave you and the other active thinkers to ponder what to do next to save skating from itself.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  15. #375

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    Beverley Smith's latest blog post uses South Korea's voting against abolishing anonymous judging at the ISU Congress to opine on their failed official complaint to the ISU and the judging controversy in Sochi: http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...-isu-congress/
    Excerpt:
    Perhaps the Koreans should have thought more carefully about what they needed to take on. The new Korean complaint apparently dealt only with Shekhovtseva’s embrace of Adelina Sotnikova after the event was over. The problem with going after Shekhovtseva was that there are apparently no rules that prohibit her from judging, even if her husband is Russian federation director-general Valentin Piseev, according to the ISU. None of the rules apply to a family relationship, and Shekhovtseva and her husband weren’t officiating in the same event, the panel said. Perhaps it should. Isn’t that the spirit of ethics? (And no, perhaps federation presidents shouldn’t be judging their own skaters, as happens in other countries, which may not have enough judges to do so, by the way.)
    ...
    The ISU should have appointed a special committee to verify the marks awarded by the judges and to have examined them. The rules allow this. The “extra” panel could have opened the mark vaults and evaluated them. But no, it’s easier for the ISU to ignore problems, especially if they want to avoid ruffling the feathers of Russia, a powerful voter in elections.
    Re-posting from the ISU Congress thread in GSD:
    Quote Originally Posted by Finnice View Post
    Hello from Finland.
    What I have understood from the Finnish judges, some small countries do feel safer with anonymous judging. You can not be pressured By the bigger nations, because anonymity gives you integrity.
    As much as I am for transparency in everything, I do understand their point of wiew.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 06-13-2014 at 08:11 PM.
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  16. #376

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    I had not considered that judges of smaller federations might feel bullied by larger federations. I do not think this necessarily is solved by anonymous judging, but it is something to consider.

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