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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Not necessarily, if the ISU's practice violates principles of natural justice, such as fairness.
    Natural justice? I can't ever recall a CAS decision involving sweeping philosophical issues. Their decisions generally turn on the nitty gritty details of a specific case.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Why don't you go and read what the complaint actually says, before shooting off your mouth.
    Well that was rude. Do you have a link to the actual complaint? So far, all I've seen were articles talking about it.

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    double post, deleted
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Natural justice? I can't ever recall a CAS decision involving sweeping philosophical issues. Their decisions generally turn on the nitty gritty details of a specific case.
    I can't see any arbitral body upholding a practice that is inherently unfair or unjust, even if it involves past practice.


    Well that was rude. Do you have a link to the actual complaint? So far, all I've seen were articles talking about it.
    The original post was rude. And the poster apparently hasn't bothered to read the information about the complaint that *is* available.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiqie View Post
    Adelina says: «To be honest, that the ISU received the complaint from South Korea, I've just heard from you. I have no time to read Internet, I long ago stopped reading comments in Instagram: maybe Koreans continue to write me hateful things, but I have no desire to spoil my mood and think about it.
    Two months have passed after the Olympics. And now there is the complaint… the only thing I can say is that the medal is mine, I am not going to give it to anyone, they can do what they want about it. I won it fair.

    Q: Alexander Gorshkov explained us that it is a common practice to change the judging panel before the free skate, and it’s strange that some people don’t know that.

    AS: Naturally. It happens all the time. How can you call it a violation is highly unclear to me. I understand that Koreans are upset, they got used to Kim Yu-Na always being first, and now she is second. But that’s not my fault!

    Q: You skate in show in Japan, what people say about the matter there?

    AS: I think it’s being discussed only in Korea. I can only wish Koreans good health… I don’t know what more to add on this. As for skaters, I haven’t talked to our skaters for a while. In Japan, the audience is very warm, every time I go on the ice or meet the fans feels like a celebration…

    Q: Do you get any questions?

    AS: Not a single one. People here don’t even know about it…
    Adelina, honey,you can keep it. Nobody's gonna strip your precious gold medal. So don't you ever feel scared or anything, you poor little soul.

    Actually, the Japanese people are just being polite that's why they didn't bash her or were hostile to her like what the Russians in Sochi Oly did to Yuna and the others. That doesn't exactly mean that they don't care about Sochi controversy. Of course they do! That was the first time Mao landed her 8 triples with no glaring mistake and she wins it with a flawed program? Actually JapanTimes was one of the firsts publishers to make an article about Sochi scandal. I'm betting my bottom dollar that if she were to skate in Korea, Koreans would be polite to her too. Those people commenting in her instagram is NOT the entire country. Gosh, she sounds like some of the posters in Goldenskate.

    Sounds like she was expecting (or hoping) that everyone would forget about what happened in Sochi. Personally, I think she knows, deep down, that she didn't deserve the gold. This is all just a desperate attempt to convince herself that she was the best. She should learn some humility, because her attitude is not helping her case at all. This is coming from someone who saw a lot of promise in her.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Actually, the Japanese people are just being polite that's why they didn't bash her or were hostile to her like what the Russians in Sochi Oly did to Yuna and the others. That doesn't exactly mean that they don't care about Sochi controversy. Of course they do! That was the first time Mao landed her 8 triples with no glaring mistake and she wins it with a flawed program?

    Maybe Mao made no mistakes which were "glaring" but her program was far from being flawless, either.

  6. #206
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    Last edited by cuon_alpinus; 04-18-2014 at 07:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Maybe Mao made no mistakes which were "glaring" but her program was far from being flawless, either.
    Agree. Her LP just "looked" clean for those who doesn't know figure skating. My point wasn't about that tho.

  8. #208
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    I know what the complaint is about. They want the isu to say the panel was wrong on some level. Then the whole process is over? South Korea uses it to try to change rules? South Korea uses it to say sotnikova shouldn't have the gold anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I know what the complaint is about. They want the isu to say the panel was wrong on some level. Then the whole process is over.
    Read the news stories about the complaint. The complaint is about the composition of the judging panel. Whether the panel reached the right decision is a separate issue and would have to be the subject of a separate complaint.

    South Korea uses it to try to change rules? South Korea uses it to say sotnikova shouldn't have the gold anymore?
    They could, and why not? If the rules allow judges with blatant conflicts of interest, and judges who were previously suspended for cheating, to sit on one of the highest-profile judging panels in the entire sport, maybe the rules should be changed.
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  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    I found it. The draw to determine which countries get judges in which pools is done after the qualifying competition in the fall (in this case Nebelhorn). The countries have 10 days after that to send in the names of their nominated judges. So, that means the ISU has known since at least last October that Shekhovtsava (Mrs. Piseev) and Balkov were in the pool for the ladies event.

    Interestingly, the rules call for each federation to notify various ISU officials of the named judges, the Russians (as the host federation), and their own national Olympic Committees. I wonder how widely this information is known or if it is formally published. If the names were made public back then, an argument could be made that this protest is not timely because the ISU rules allow only a 60 day window for filing once the basis for the protest is known.
    Given how political the ISU is, I can see why member federations would not want to file a protest against judges who were in the pool, before the final draw was made. It would likely cause a lot of grief for that federation, and the fallout might not be worth it if that judge wasn't drawn in the panel selection.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Read the news stories about the complaint. The complaint is about the composition of the judging panel. Whether the panel reached the right decision is a separate issue and would have to be the subject of a separate complaint.



    They could, and why not? If the rules allow judges with blatant conflicts of interest, and judges who were previously suspended for cheating, to sit on one of the highest-profile judging panels in the entire sport, maybe the rules should be changed.
    I have read the stories about the complaint. The issue is how it stops at a finding that the panel was illegitimate in some way. If the ISU rules that Shekhovtseva, Balkov, or Kulik or in the technical panel Lakernik was an illegitimate member of the technical panel everything stops at that finding? That doesn't make sense. Balkov was in the draw and everyone knew he was and everyone knew Lakernik and Shekhovtseva. If the ISU rules them being there was improper in a retroactive way that that doesn't effect what they did in scoring?

  12. #212
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    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA
    The bolded part. From Tat!
    My travel and adventure blog http://alisonanddon.wordpress.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA
    The lady doth protest too much.

    Also, the fact that the Russians keep on trumpeting "technical merit, technical merit", while not addressing the real issue of the PCS inflation just about says it all.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    I can't see any arbitral body upholding a practice that is inherently unfair or unjust, even if it involves past practice.
    Well, I would love it if the CAS told the ISU they needed to enforce more stringent standards, but I will be really surprised if they do. It isn't the job of the CAS to tell the ISU what their Code of Ethics should be, it will be their job to study what the code actually does say, look at the actions of the officials named in the complaint, and determine if anything they did violated the code. (I still look forward to reading the actual complaint to see if there are any issues in it other than these two judges.)

    The current ISU Code of Ethics is found in ISU Communication 1717:
    http://static.isu.org/media/104035/1...11-version.pdf

    In the case of the Technical Controller also serving as Russian Federation VP, I think there is a good argument this violates paragraph 4.f:

    "f) I agree that my performance, conduct and comments while serving the ISU should genuinely stimulate trust and confidence among the Members, Skaters, officials, media and the public at large. I understand that my actions can reflect on the ISU and the sport of skating both positively and negatively. I recognize that even the appearance of misconduct, impropriety, insincere attitude or purpose can be damaging. I agree not to hold any official position within my Member organization that at any time could be, or reasonably appear to be, in conflict with my independent status, duty and loyalty to the ISU."
    Clearly, one cannot be seen as independent when one is a national federation official. The wording here is a little awkward though, in that it talks about taking a federation position while holding an ISU appointment, rather than the other way around. In this case, Lakernik was already Russian Federation VP before his appointment to serve as Tech Controller in Sochi. (I don't know what the timing is re his federation job and his appointment to the ISU big list of qualified international technical officials.) IMO if the Koreans have not mentioned Lakernik in their complaint, they should amend it to add him (esp since part of the controversy involves technical calls relating to Sotnikova).

    In the case of Alla S., a good argument can be made that her serving on any judging panel in which Russian skaters are competing violated this language from Paragraph 4.h:

    "I agree to: (1) prompt disclosure of my personal interest in any situation that could reasonably be considered to involve a conflict of interest; (2) abstain from making or influencing decisions involving personal or family gain or public acclaim; (3) absolute independence on my part which excludes favoritism for, or prejudice against, any Member, Coach, Skater or his/her family member, ISU Office Holder or country; and (4) strict observance of the confidentiality of non-public ISU information or when disclosure is prohibited by law or the ISU Statutes."
    When considering conflicts of interests, it is usually held that a wife's interests cannot be separated from her husband's and vice-versa. I think it is a given that an OGM for a skater does "gain public acclaim" for his/her federation and that federation's highest officials. (BTW, Shekhovtseva also served on the panel for the ladies FS in the team event. If CAS rules there was a violation for ladies singles, then there would also be an even more clear violation for the team event under this "glory to the federation" argument.)

    As for Balkov, while I agree personally that an ethical violation should earn a lifetime ban from Olympic judging, I think this argument is a non-starter because the code does not call for that. For the CAS to find he should not have been allowed on this Olympic panel, they would essentially be reviewing the punishment handed down to Balkov over a decade ago, which included only a suspension for a period of time. I don't even know if a federation has standing to appeal the results of disciplinary actions not involving their own members, and even if they do, surely the time for such an objection has long since passed.
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-19-2014 at 08:47 PM.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternitygoddess View Post
    The lady doth protest too much.

    Also, the fact that the Russians keep on trumpeting "technical merit, technical merit", while not addressing the real issue of the PCS inflation just about says it all.
    Right. And the under-rotation, wrong edge, and level of step sequence too.

    But back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

    She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
    Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

    I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I have read the stories about the complaint. The issue is how it stops at a finding that the panel was illegitimate in some way. If the ISU rules that Shekhovtseva, Balkov, or Kulik or in the technical panel Lakernik was an illegitimate member of the technical panel everything stops at that finding? That doesn't make sense...
    I agree (except Kulik had nothing to do with it, you mean Balkov, I think). One of the reasons we need to see the complaint is to see what the Koreans want them to do about it, should the complaint be upheld. You can't just be complaining, you have to be asking for something (not just a ruling on principle but a practical outcome). One guess would be a dual gold medal for Kim a la Sale/Peletier. But then what would be the repercussions for the team medals? The two Russian officials mentioned above also did that event (but not Balkov).

    Another theory is that the Koreans filing the complaint are really just doing it for show to appease their home audience. They don't really expect anything to happen or even to win, it is all about posturing.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have.[/url]
    The same woman who told Frank Carroll he should have slipped the judges a bottle of vodka in Nagano so Kwan would win.

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    I'm not going to quote all of SusanM's post because it's long, but there are some excellent points in it.

    Re Balkov, I agree that the CAS could not reasonably review his case, since his offense was "resolved" by the ISU at the time. (I say "resolved" because IMHO the penalty was ridiculous in light of the offense.) The ISU itself should have considered that having him in the pool or on the panel at the Olympics was a very bad move in terms of how the fairness of the competition would be perceived. But that would require the ISU to be aware of how it's perceived generally, which isn't one of its strong points.

    "I agree to: (1) prompt disclosure of my personal interest in any situation that could reasonably be considered to involve a conflict of interest; (2) abstain from making or influencing decisions involving personal or family gain or public acclaim; (3) absolute independence on my part which excludes favoritism for, or prejudice against, any Member, Coach, Skater or his/her family member, ISU Office Holder or country; and (4) strict observance of the confidentiality of non-public ISU information or when disclosure is prohibited by law or the ISU Statutes."
    The ISU's bylaws and policies are really badly written, and this is an excellent example. Depending on how "public acclaim" is interpreted or applied - is the "acclaim" for the skater? for the country? for the federation? for the judge? - this could exclude pretty much every qualified judge from any country. And the final part basically forces the judge to agree to shut up about everything and anything, which is certainly not fair or reasonable.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I have read the stories about the complaint. The issue is how it stops at a finding that the panel was illegitimate in some way. If the ISU rules that Shekhovtseva, Balkov, or Kulik or in the technical panel Lakernik was an illegitimate member of the technical panel everything stops at that finding? That doesn't make sense. Balkov was in the draw and everyone knew he was and everyone knew Lakernik and Shekhovtseva. If the ISU rules them being there was improper in a retroactive way that that doesn't effect what they did in scoring?
    Yes, it does make sense, because they are separate issues. It doesn't "stop" after the first complaint - one complaint lays the groundwork for the other. The ISU or CAS can say, the policy was improperly applied and the panel was wrong, which could then open the door to a complaint about the results. If the ISU or CAS say the panel was OK, then there are no grounds to then complain about the results.

    But without seeing the actual text of the complaint, we don't know if this is the strategy that is being used.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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