View Poll Results: Does Chan's lack of OGM take him out of contention for all-time Top 5?

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  • Yes

    37 38.14%
  • No

    60 61.86%
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  1. #61
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    I don't think Chan will be remembered all that differently than the 3 other Canadian men who had worlds titles and who had disappointing Olympics. Some of them like Orser medaled in 2 Olympics so they will largely have a better legacy in fact. Chan's attitude (with confidence bordering on arrogance) will not endear him to the masses as much. It is hard for a man's skater to be beloved. Heck, Evan won OGM and was on DWTS and I bet 95% of America would not know his name

  2. #62
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    North America will always be fairly indifferent to men's skating compared to ladies, which is clearly the main entree, and even that has lost popularity over the years. I think Brian Boitano still has the highest name recognition for any male skater here, mostly because of South Park though. Their endorsements are typically weak sauce compared to the truly idolized athletes.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Exactly. Does anyone even remember her rivals? Also, it's debatable whether her fame was really due to her wins or her hollywood career.
    *Sigh* Ok where should I start? You only need to read the press and watch the movie reels of the time to know that, in Europe at least, Sonja Henie was very famous during her amateur career. During those years, skating news was carried by all the main press outlets and, as Sonja's fame grew so did their coverage. Most may have only seen a small clip on a newsreel in a cinema, unless they had seen her live, but many knew who she was. Sonja gave exhibitions all over Europe and her arrivals in countries and major cities were always news. Sure her movies made her famous across the globe but she was hardly some unknown when she was signed by 20th Century Fox!

    As to her rivals, they were many and very interesting, and don't deserve to be dismissed out of hand. What about Herma Szabo who was robbed of the first Worlds Henie won by the fact that of the five judges, three were Norwegian? Fritzi Burger and Melitta Brunner were well known skaters across Europe who often had better programmes than Sonja, but not the political clout. Indeed Sonja wanted Melitta Brunner to give her two exhibitions she was working on herself. Melitta did this and actually coached her in the two exhibitions which were contrasting and needed two different costumes to enhance this. Sonja didn't like the latin themed costume and skated both numbers in the same dress designed for the first exhibition which was a Norwegian peasant dance set to Grieg! Melitta warned Sonja that the audience wouldn't have it but Sonja insisted saying that, as Sonja Henie they would love her whatever she did. She went to Paris to début the numbers and received some of the worst write ups of her career!

    In 1931 Sonja was seriously challenged for the World title by a tiny 13 year old named Hilde Holovsky. Sonja was very complimentary of Holovsky and her skating. Hilde was regarded as the successor to Henie and expected to challenge for the gold medal in 1932 but her parents couldn't afford to send her to North America to compete in the Lake Placid Olympics or the following Worlds. After winning bronze at the 1933 Worlds she died of acute appendicitis aged 16.

    By 1933 Sonja's main rivals were Megan Taylor and Cecilia Colledge of Great Britain who continued to finish second to her at most competitions up to and including the 1936 season. Cecilia of course, came closest to beating Henie in Garmisch at the 1936 Olympics. And, while not a serious rival to Henie in terms of placements, I think it would be foolhardy to merely dismiss as a nobody a US skater named Maribel Vinson. Other great skaters of the era included Vivi-Anne Hulten (there was no love lost between her and Henie at all!!) and Liselotte Landbeck.

    The point of all this? These were great skaters in their own right. Not all of Sonja's victories were walkovers, many were tightly fought contests. And above all, they certainly deserve to be remembered

  4. #64

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    Remember when Patrick had a coach that used to tell him, "We are ordinary people doing extraordinary things." in the Kiss and Cry . . . Rather than a coach that fed his ego until he ate himself so she could say she coached an OSM despite his skating going off the deep end . . . so sad

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    *Sigh* Ok where should I start? You only need to read the press and watch the movie reels of the time to know that, in Europe at least, Sonja Henie was very famous during her amateur career. During those years, skating news was carried by all the main press outlets and, as Sonja's fame grew so did their coverage. Most may have only seen a small clip on a newsreel in a cinema, unless they had seen her live, but many knew who she was. Sonja gave exhibitions all over Europe and her arrivals in countries and major cities were always news. Sure her movies made her famous across the globe but she was hardly some unknown when she was signed by 20th Century Fox!

    As to her rivals, they were many and very interesting, and don't deserve to be dismissed out of hand. What about Herma Szabo who was robbed of the first Worlds Henie won by the fact that of the five judges, three were Norwegian? Fritzi Burger and Melitta Brunner were well known skaters across Europe who often had better programmes than Sonja, but not the political clout. Indeed Sonja wanted Melitta Brunner to give her two exhibitions she was working on herself. Melitta did this and actually coached her in the two exhibitions which were contrasting and needed two different costumes to enhance this. Sonja didn't like the latin themed costume and skated both numbers in the same dress designed for the first exhibition which was a Norwegian peasant dance set to Grieg! Melitta warned Sonja that the audience wouldn't have it but Sonja insisted saying that, as Sonja Henie they would love her whatever she did. She went to Paris to début the numbers and received some of the worst write ups of her career!

    In 1931 Sonja was seriously challenged for the World title by a tiny 13 year old named Hilde Holovsky. Sonja was very complimentary of Holovsky and her skating. Hilde was regarded as the successor to Henie and expected to challenge for the gold medal in 1932 but her parents couldn't afford to send her to North America to compete in the Lake Placid Olympics or the following Worlds. After winning bronze at the 1933 Worlds she died of acute appendicitis aged 16.

    By 1933 Sonja's main rivals were Megan Taylor and Cecilia Colledge of Great Britain who continued to finish second to her at most competitions up to and including the 1936 season. Cecilia of course, came closest to beating Henie in Garmisch at the 1936 Olympics. And, while not a serious rival to Henie in terms of placements, I think it would be foolhardy to merely dismiss as a nobody a US skater named Maribel Vinson. Other great skaters of the era included Vivi-Anne Hulten (there was no love lost between her and Henie at all!!) and Liselotte Landbeck.

    The point of all this? These were great skaters in their own right. Not all of Sonja's victories were walkovers, many were tightly fought contests. And above all, they certainly deserve to be remembered
    Please tell me you plan to write a book about skating or something. You're like a skating historian

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    By contrast, Stojko was a pioneer (first 4-3 combination) and he won 3 world titles and two Olympic silver medals, but I am having difficulty placing him above Chan because of Chan's great basic skating skills and the beauty of his 4-3.
    Stoijko may not be among the greats, but IMO he is among the most memorable when it comes to competitive fire.

    His 1998 free skate with a groin injury is among my most memorable skates. He was so badly injured that he had to wear running shoes to the medal podium. He couldn't land a quad and wouldn't have beaten Kulik even with the quad - but he skated like it was his last moment on earth and he wanted to do it justice. And skated pretty clean.

    I thought his brilliant Bruce Lee program summed up exactly who Elvis was and it too is among my most memorable skates. No one before or since has done anything quite similar. Elvis didn't develop much range, but he does have that strong signature.

    In the end, Elvis will stand out in my memory more than Chan. Elvis built up his strengths so that his weaknesses hardly mattered. In contrast, Chan let his weaknesses spoil his strengths too often, and it was a real shame.

    This Olympics was a test of sorts for Patrick. I'm sorry to say he did not do well.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechicko_o View Post
    North America will always be fairly indifferent to men's skating compared to ladies, which is clearly the main entree, and even that has lost popularity over the years. I think Brian Boitano still has the highest name recognition for any male skater here, mostly because of South Park though. Their endorsements are typically weak sauce compared to the truly idolized athletes.
    That is true of the US but not Canada. The men's field comes first in Canada, whereas the US is all about ice princesses.

  8. #68
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    Elvis was a great competitor. His artistry left something to be desired but it was also sort of refreshing that he had his style that was different from everyone else and he didn't compromise it. I can't say I'd rewatch many of his performances but as a competitor, he's a lot stronger than Chan.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    That is true of the US but not Canada. The men's field comes first in Canada, whereas the US is all about ice princesses.
    I keep reading about how popularity has declined and half empty crowds even in Canada though.. I have a lot of Canadian friends and it's hockey hockey hockey for them. And honestly, Chan hasn't exactly gotten a slew of endorsements either.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechicko_o View Post
    I don't think it's just the arrogance, but it's a certain way you pull off that arrogance. Like I think Patrick jumped on that arrogance train way too early. You're supposed to become a legend first and then act like you rule. For him, it just seemed like umm who died and made him king... Also he always seems to make fun of Plushenko's advanced age before an Olympics yet he still loses to him lol.

    Also arrogance is more acceptable when your competitors are also that way, but recently you have nice guys like Yuzuru and Denis and Dai, while Patrick seems out of place with his attitude.
    Skate Canada gave Patrick no help whatsoever in that regard. Patrick had to deal with his emotions on show to the world. IMO, there was a whole lot of bluster and a whole lack of media training

  11. #71
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    IMO, he is already one of the very best ever. Don't know about top 5. But his skating skills are already known as top class. And he already skated programs way better than anybody else (2013 TEB for example)

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    *Sigh* Ok where should I start? You only need to read the press and watch the movie reels of the time to know that, in Europe at least, Sonja Henie was very famous during her amateur career. During those years, skating news was carried by all the main press outlets and, as Sonja's fame grew so did their coverage. Most may have only seen a small clip on a newsreel in a cinema, unless they had seen her live, but many knew who she was. Sonja gave exhibitions all over Europe and her arrivals in countries and major cities were always news. Sure her movies made her famous across the globe but she was hardly some unknown when she was signed by 20th Century Fox!

    As to her rivals, they were many and very interesting, and don't deserve to be dismissed out of hand. What about Herma Szabo who was robbed of the first Worlds Henie won by the fact that of the five judges, three were Norwegian? Fritzi Burger and Melitta Brunner were well known skaters across Europe who often had better programmes than Sonja, but not the political clout. Indeed Sonja wanted Melitta Brunner to give her two exhibitions she was working on herself. Melitta did this and actually coached her in the two exhibitions which were contrasting and needed two different costumes to enhance this. Sonja didn't like the latin themed costume and skated both numbers in the same dress designed for the first exhibition which was a Norwegian peasant dance set to Grieg! Melitta warned Sonja that the audience wouldn't have it but Sonja insisted saying that, as Sonja Henie they would love her whatever she did. She went to Paris to début the numbers and received some of the worst write ups of her career!

    In 1931 Sonja was seriously challenged for the World title by a tiny 13 year old named Hilde Holovsky. Sonja was very complimentary of Holovsky and her skating. Hilde was regarded as the successor to Henie and expected to challenge for the gold medal in 1932 but her parents couldn't afford to send her to North America to compete in the Lake Placid Olympics or the following Worlds. After winning bronze at the 1933 Worlds she died of acute appendicitis aged 16.

    By 1933 Sonja's main rivals were Megan Taylor and Cecilia Colledge of Great Britain who continued to finish second to her at most competitions up to and including the 1936 season. Cecilia of course, came closest to beating Henie in Garmisch at the 1936 Olympics. And, while not a serious rival to Henie in terms of placements, I think it would be foolhardy to merely dismiss as a nobody a US skater named Maribel Vinson. Other great skaters of the era included Vivi-Anne Hulten (there was no love lost between her and Henie at all!!) and Liselotte Landbeck.

    The point of all this? These were great skaters in their own right. Not all of Sonja's victories were walkovers, many were tightly fought contests. And above all, they certainly deserve to be remembered
    Thank you for the history lesson.

  13. #73
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    Can't rep again just yet floskate but thank you for the tidbits about the great Sonja Henie! I have much love and respect for those pioneer athletes of yesteryear who paved the way for those yet to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    And nobody ever mentions that Sonja came in dead last at her first Olympics. So what if she was only six years old at the time
    Considering there were only five other competitors one might think she could at least finished fourth.

    Don't forget that today fourth place and a BOW gets you to the Olympics where finishing 7th is considered both redemption and getting gypped at the same time.

    Or that winning the OGM with some of the greatest technical skating every seen by a Lady on Olympic Ice is considered little more than the the product of a fix.

    Patrick realized a while ago he could have picked a better sport or discipline to excel in.
    Technically, Sonja was 11 at her first Olympic Games at Chamonix in 1924 Sonja Henie 1924 Winter Olympics and there were 13 ladies competing from 9 nations but I do see what you mean!
    Last edited by Sasha'sSpins; 03-02-2014 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Exactly. Does anyone even remember her rivals? Also, it's debatable whether her fame was really due to her wins or her hollywood career.
    of course everyone remembers her rivals, as floskate so aptly proved. I think you're allowing her to become victim of her own pr spin. One of the reasons why she was so famous is that they really boasted her wins and trashed her rivals on a regular basis to create this aura of the super talent who cake walked her way to 10 victories. Now it's being twisted into she was just ok, it was the others who couldn't even stand up straight, and weren't there only 3 of them anyway. karma.

    People also don't get handed hollywood careers because they won a few medals. She was a superstar. But this is just one more thing $peedy f$&@ked up about skating. They all got more famous from pro skating. Fleming, hamil, curry, Hamilton, yamaguchi, etc... They would all be less know and more forgotten without all the tv specials and ice tours. Even things like soap and shampoo commercials helped. Things are better in Asia now, but it's not the big industry it was when pro skating ruled in the us.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Chan has only had a few really poor performances in the quad. Skate Canada 2010, that grand prix event he lost to Verner that same season, 2013 Worlds LP and 2014 Olympics LP. That is it. Not bad at all. 2012 Worlds some disagreed with his win but he didnt skate bad at all whether he was the rightful winner or not.
    He is unfortunate
    He had his worst performances in biggest competitions
    I think it also effected his reputation of his consistency

    It's opposite with Yuna
    She had two clean performances three-times in her career. She has done all in biggest competitions. 2010 olympic, 2013 worlds, 2014 olympic.
    She is not that consistency as people think. Actually

    Luck is very important in this sports. Because in other sports top players are not very inconsistent as much as in skating
    Some skaters are very disadvantageous in this aspects
    Like skaters who has been very well but messed up in olympic. Mao and chan were in sochi..

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    It's opposite with Yuna
    She had two clean performances three-times in her career. She has done all in biggest competitions. 2010 olympic, 2013 worlds, 2014 olympic.
    She is not that consistency as people think. Actually

    Luck is very important in this sports.
    Yes. Yuna was lucky to skate at the last order that she hates to death in 13WC LP & 14Oly LP.
    Anyways, Yuna has improved from 11WC SP(the last order) when she failed a 3-3 for the only time out of 16 tries in 8 big competitions(6 Worlds + 2 Olympics).
    BTW, I remember you last year too said Yuna is lucky.


    Let's get back to Chan topic.
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 03-03-2014 at 07:35 AM.

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