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  1. #1
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    Controversial results that actually led to change?

    Other than SLC's judging scandal which led to an entire overhaul of the system, when have controversial results actually had lasting impact on the judging system? It seems like we have a lot of iffy judging issues that never really get addressed.

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    None other than the SLC pairs scandal and all it created was a more scandalous system which creates even more controversy and even worse results, except in ice dance where the judging has improved greatly with it.

  3. #3
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    Janet Lynn not winning competitions based on the 60% school figures helped introduce the SP and ordinal ranking

    Midori Ito thrilling crowds left and right without winning many competitions helped eliminate school figures

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    None other than the SLC pairs scandal and all it created was a more scandalous system which creates even more controversy and even worse results, except in ice dance where the judging has improved greatly with it.

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    The way figures counted toward the final result was changed again after Frattianne "wuz robbed"

    Iirc, the tech mark deciding tie breaks in LP was changed to the presentation mark after Boitano beat Orser.

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    I dont know what you find funny about what I said. The judging in ice dance did greatly improve. It used to be Russian owned no matter what like every other event in skating. Now it allows skaters who arent from Moscow to stand a chance at medals. Placements move from dance to dance and competition to competition which never used to happen. Falls and stumbles lose you points and placements unlike before. I know it isnt perfect; many thought Virtue & Moir should have won the Olympics this time for instance. It is much better and fairer than it used to be though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    None other than the SLC pairs scandal and all it created was a more scandalous system which creates even more controversy and even worse results, except in ice dance where the judging has improved greatly with it.
    The judging in ice dance has taken a turn for the worse once 2010 was over. Before the 2010-2011 season it could've been anyone's game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Janet Lynn not winning competitions based on the 60% school figures helped introduce the SP and ordinal ranking

    Midori Ito thrilling crowds left and right without winning many competitions helped eliminate school figures
    Very true. Although--ironically enough--the one year Janet Lynn skated the short program she bombed it and still lost the world title. And the only world title Midori won was in a year that school figures were still part of the competition.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    Quote Originally Posted by parapluies View Post
    The judging in ice dance has taken a turn for the worse once 2010 was over. Before the 2010-2011 season it could've been anyone's game.
    Are you disputing that V&M and D&W are the two best? The reason those two always win, is they are clearly the two best. It isnt their fault the other teams arent at their level. Who should be challenging them, seriously. Before 2010-2011 it had been almost everyones game for about 7 years which shows the improved judging under COP. When lots of teams are close in ability the fluid standings with lots of contenders show that. The standings from 3 downwards over the last 4 years have too. It just so happens two teams are a level above everyone else, and good judging must acknowledge that too.

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    Under the old 6.0 system, I think the change from adding placements to majority ordinals was made because some judges were manipulating the system, putting opposition skaters a place or two lower than they should have been in an effort to drive down their ordinal scores. (Actually, they literally were driving them up, since the smaller the ordinal the better.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Are you disputing that V&M and D&W are the two best? The reason those two always win, is they are clearly the two best. It isnt their fault the other teams arent at their level. Who should be challenging them, seriously. Before 2010-2011 it had been almost everyones game for about 7 years which shows the improved judging under COP. When lots of teams are close in ability the fluid standings with lots of contenders show that. The standings from 3 downwards over the last 4 years have too. It just so happens two teams are a level above everyone else, and good judging must acknowledge that too.
    It's only taken a turn for the worst in their opinions because their preferred team (Virtue/Moir) stopped winning. Funny that they're including the 2012 Worlds result with that, although I doubt that any of them were bemoaning the judging during those Worlds. Anyway, 2010 certainly was not anyone's game as they like to say because V/M winning was pretty much a given seeing how that whole season was going. The only unprecedented thing was D/W losing the OD to V/M at the Olympics after D/W had beaten them prior in that phase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It's only taken a turn for the worst in their opinions because their preferred team (Virtue/Moir) stopped winning. Funny that they're including the 2012 Worlds result with that, although I doubt that any of them were bemoaning the judging during those Worlds.
    I thought D&W were robbed majorly at the 2012 Worlds. V&M's Funny Face was their worst program ever, and they made some obvious errors while D&W were perfect. I do think the judging has been way to pro D&W of late though. Even so on the whole ice dance judging is far better the last 10 years than it used to be. I dont see how anyone can deny that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I thought D&W were robbed majorly at the 2012 Worlds. V&M's Funny Face was their worst program ever, and they made some obvious errors while D&W were perfect. I do think the judging has been way to pro D&W of late though. Even so on the whole ice dance judging is far better the last 10 years than it used to be. I dont see how anyone can deny that.
    D/W getting +3s GOE with out of sync twizzles and top PCS across the board to me is reputation judging. Even without going into D/W and V/M, judging for the rest of the top groups aren't great either. I/K getting 110, PCS over teams like P/B, the way B/S won CoR... But I guess you will think those marks are justified because otherwise it doesn't make sense that all disciplines have judging issues except when it comes to D/W where they got it absolutlely right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Janet Lynn not winning competitions based on the 60% school figures helped introduce the SP and ordinal ranking

    Midori Ito thrilling crowds left and right without winning many competitions helped eliminate school figures
    1968-1969 was the season when figures were reduced from 60% to 50%...not sure it was necessarily a skater in particular that brought on the change for that season.

    But yes, Janet Lynn certainly was behind the change that happened in 1972-73 where figures were reduced again to 40%, short program 20% and long program 40% (changed again to 30% figures 50% long program by the 1976 Olympics). More significantly, the number of figures performed dropped from 6 in 1972 all the way down to 3 by 1976, which lessened the margin of leads by which figures specialists could accumulate after each figure.
    Last edited by Seerek; 02-26-2014 at 09:00 AM.

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    After Evan's win in Vancouver, quads were boosted. Also, wasn't the 3A boosted and allowed in the Ladies SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    D/W getting +3s GOE with out of sync twizzles and top PCS across the board to me is reputation judging. Even without going into D/W and V/M, judging for the rest of the top groups aren't great either. I/K getting 110, PCS over teams like P/B, the way B/S won CoR... But I guess you will think those marks are justified because otherwise it doesn't make sense that all disciplines have judging issues except when it comes to D/W where they got it absolutlely right.
    I never said ice dance judging was picture perfect today. Far from it. Just that it atleast improved from what it was. Do you not remember the horror days of Bestiamanova & Bukin winning 5 straight world or olympic titles with no technical skills at all, or Gritschuk & Platov winning every event even with stumbles and falls and beating Usova & Zhulin and Torvil & Dean for the 94 gold with their sloppiest program ever. The bloc judging scandal in Nagano. Atleast you have to admit it is overall better than it was then.

    I do think the fix was in for D&W's in Sochi but that was one event, and the figure skating event in Sochi was all fixed and a deal to secure D&W their gold and I&K a bronze no matter what was part of it. It shouldnt be reflective of how ice dance overall is judged these days. D&W and V&M are generally very evenly matched so meetings between them can go either way and their history reflects that, very equal. The Sochi dance was just a part of the horrible Sochi skating judging in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I thought D&W were robbed majorly at the 2012 Worlds. V&M's Funny Face was their worst program ever, and they made some obvious errors while D&W were perfect. I do think the judging has been way to pro D&W of late though. Even so on the whole ice dance judging is far better the last 10 years than it used to be. I dont see how anyone can deny that.
    'Funny Face' was not a great program by Virtue/Moir's standards, but it was not bad either. The only obvious error they had was a stumble that was not on an element. Davis/White had two level 3 step sequences vs. Virtue/Moir's level 4 and level 3 - that's what made the difference in the technical score. I thought D/W's edges in that performance were not as deep as usual throughout. So they were not perfect either. I am not even sure that D/W had the better FD. Perhaps the more accessible and "exciting" one, yes. But there was so much two-footed skating in it, and the contrast between it and 'Funny Face' was more evident than ever since in that regard. The footwork in 'Funny Face' was so much more difficult than in 'Die Fledermaus'. So it is only logical that Tessa and Scott got a higher score for skating skills even despite the stumbles - it was what should have happened in other competitions as well that season. The 'Performance/Execution' score is debatable, but I think a higher 'Choreography' mark is understandable because of that very reason (simpler footwork vs. more difficult) and others that I had thought about, but have forgotten now. 'Interpretation' is debatable again, but what I know is that more accessible and "exciting" music doesn't automatically mean that the skater using it should get higher marks for interpretation. The 'Interpretation' component is about interpreting the music that the skater is skating to, not about who chose more exciting music. And it's actually more difficult to interpret less "exciting" music.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I do think the fix was in for D&W's in Sochi but that was one event, and the figure skating event in Sochi was all fixed and a deal to secure D&W their gold and I&K a bronze no matter what was part of it. It shouldnt be reflective of how ice dance overall is judged these days. D&W and V&M are generally very evenly matched so meetings between them can go either way and their history reflects that, very equal. The Sochi dance was just a part of the horrible Sochi skating judging in general.
    It was more than one event. Or weren't you watching the GP Final? It was the event were Davis/White with small mistakes in both programs won over a completely clean Virtue/Moir (and, no, V/M didn't have any loss in levels, while D/W probably should have lost a level on their SD twizzles). Even some D/W fans admitted that V/M should have won at least the SD. And the gap in the team event where V/M did make mistakes was too huge as well.

  18. #18
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    Evan's controversial win over Evgeny in 2010 (although I agree that Evan won) led to the quad being worth more again (which I also think is good for the sport moving forward).

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    It was more than one event. Or weren't you watching the GP Final? It was the event were Davis/White with small mistakes in both programs won over a completely clean Virtue/Moir (and, no, V/M didn't have any loss in levels, while D/W probably should have lost a level on their SD twizzles). Even some D/W fans admitted that V/M should have won at least the SD. And the gap in the team event where V/M did make mistakes was too huge as well.
    Although I much preferred V/M's SD at the GPF, there's a good reason why D/W did not lose a level on those twizzles. It was explained in one of the pre-Olympics V/M threads, but that was widely ignored.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    After Evan's win in Vancouver, quads were boosted. Also, wasn't the 3A boosted and allowed in the Ladies SP.
    IMO changing the rules about program content is a different question from changing the scoring system in response to bad judging.

    Another change made about that time was how they score the under-rotated jumps. I think that was done mostly in response to audience bafflement over scores, because as long as the skater stays upright, looks to have landed on one foot and flows out of the jump, they don't notice the 120 degree UR. Now the jump needs to be more obviously under-rotated to get the full downgrade.

    Japan lobbied hard to get the SP program rule to allow ladies to do 2A or 3A to benefit Mao and I have always found that change to be wrong. (Karmic payback came here when the 3A ended up costing her in the SP and I think probably also led to the other errors. A clean SP with a 2A would have left Mao in a much stronger position.)

    Before the 3 axel, the SP elements were always intended to reflect what multiple skaters were doing. They didn't change the ladies' solo jump out of fw to a triple until long after the whole field could do multiple triples. They didn't allow quads in the men's SP just for Elvis; they waited until there were multiple top men doing quads.

    It was explained in one of the pre-Olympics V/M threads, but that was widely ignored.
    It is so impressive how some fans can whine long and hard about levels when they don't even understand how levels are called. Weirder still, they continue those whines even knowing they are wrong.
    Last edited by Susan M; 02-26-2014 at 09:36 PM.

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