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  1. #1

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    Adult Level Question

    Now that ISA has introduced the Copper division, I am sorely tempted to compete at Adult level only this year. But before I make that decision, I wanted to check that I'm reading the program requirements right - primarily the jump elements.

    Here is the wording from the official ISA document:

    a) A maximum of four (4) jump elements.
    Only single and half - revolution jumps are permitted, no Lutz jump, no Axel type jump, no double or triple jumps can be included.
    A jump combination may consist of the same or another single jump. There may be up to two (2) jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) listed jumps, the other one (1) up to two (2) listed jumps.
    Any solo jump can be repeated only once and this repetition must be done either in a jump combination or in a jump sequence (maximum of 2 of any jump).
    This has confused me a little.

    Now, I have to confess that my Salchow is my worst jump. It's horrible. No matter how hard I work on it its just...yuck. So I want to avoid it if at all possible.

    My ideal jump layout for this level would be: 1Lo, 1F, 1Lo-1T, 1F-1T. Have I read the requirements right? Could I do that layout, or is only one jump allowed to be repeated?

  2. #2

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    Never competed ISA, only USFSA but that seems to make sense to me. The way I read 'any solo jump can be repeated only once' was that you couldn't 'Zayak' and do 3 flips or the like.

    Also, not sure if this matters in ISA or not, but in USFSA events it's common to see 3 jump combos if they are allowed. Since you mentioned sal's not going to happen, could you do waltz-loop-toe or waltz-toe-loop? If that's not going to happen, obviously stick to the current layout.

    Good luck !

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    The current layout will work. Each jump can only be repeated once; not that only one jump can be repeated.

    I would note that I don't think a waltz jump is considered an axel type jump if you wanted to use it, but I think your layout gets good points as is; with the exception of not having a 3 jump combination.

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    My question would be about the toe loop. You're right, the wording is a little unclear, but it could be interpreted as saying that you can only repeat a jump in combination if you've already done that jump on its own. If that's what it means, if you are going to use the toe loop as part of a combination, you would have to have a single toe loop on its own earlier in the program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    If that's what it means, if you are going to use the toe loop as part of a combination, you would have to have a single toe loop on its own earlier in the program.
    I don't think you have to do the toe loop on its own because it says that the jumps in a combination can be the same, so 1T-1T would be both toe loops in combination and allowed.

    I think it is just you can't do 1T and 1T.


    I don't know about ISA but when I was switching from USFS to ISI I was able to email them and get clarification on the rules- they were helpful. Is there someone at ISA who can clarify? I'd say ask a coach, but my experience is that coaches often know less about adult skating than adult skaters do, since they mostly deal with kids.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I don't think you have to do the toe loop on its own because it says that the jumps in a combination can be the same, so 1T-1T would be both toe loops in combination and allowed.

    I think it is just you can't do 1T and 1T.

    It says "any solo jump can be repeated only once, and this repetition must be done as part of a jump combination or jump sequence". I agree that this means you can't do 1T and 1T, but it could also be read as that you have to do 1T as a solo jump *before* you can do e.g. 1F-1T or 1Lo-1T. IOW you have to do the jump as a solo jump before you can include it in a sequence.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    It says "any solo jump can be repeated only once, and this repetition must be done as part of a jump combination or jump sequence". I agree that this means you can't do 1T and 1T, but it could also be read as that you have to do 1T as a solo jump *before* you can do e.g. 1F-1T or 1Lo-1T. IOW you have to do the jump as a solo jump before you can include it in a sequence.
    So how do you explain 1T-1T, which is allowed by
    A jump combination may consist of the same or another single jump.
    You can't do 1T then 1T-1T because that is repeating a jump 3 times.

  8. #8

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    Well, clearly if you did 1T first then you couldn't do an 1T-1T combination. At least not if you wanted to get points for it.

    I think misskarne needs to contact ISA and get them to officially answer this question.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    I'm starting to think so too

    Thanks for all the help though, everyone.

  10. #10

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    Having been a TC on Adult events in Australia, the Australian rule for Adults (which aligns with Obertsdorf) is you cannot repeat a jump more than once and then if you do repeat it it must be in combination. For example if you did a program of jumps like this:

    1Lo
    1T
    1F+1Lo
    1S*+1Lo*
    1T*

    I have * the jumps that you would be marked invalid and get no value for them. Be very careful because as you can see the Sal and Lo combo is lost altogether. It is not just the Lo because it has already been twice before. The second Toe is also lost because it wasn't done in combination which it needed to be to be counted. But is also additional to the maximum number of jump elements that are allowed.

    As for your jump layout as listed in your initial post, that would be fine and no jumps would be marked invalid.

    Hope that explains it.
    Last edited by Aussie Willy; 02-05-2014 at 04:25 AM.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post

    My ideal jump layout for this level would be: 1Lo, 1F, 1Lo-1T, 1F-1T. Have I read the requirements right? Could I do that layout, or is only one jump allowed to be repeated?
    mmm, I'm not sure if this layout would work... When I read this:
    Any solo jump can be repeated only once and this repetition must be done either in a jump combination or in a jump sequence (maximum of 2 of any jump).
    It sounds like you can only repeat a maximum of 2 jumps. In your case, you're repeating 3 jumps (The loop, the flip and the toe loop). Maybe either substitute one of the combos with a waltz-toe, or only do 1 combo (so 1lo, 1f, 1t, 1f-1t)

    or bring in the sal

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    It says a max of 2 jumps of one type can be done; not 2 jumps only can be repeated.

    Anyway, an ISA judge has said the layout is okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    mmm, I'm not sure if this layout would work... When I read this:

    It sounds like you can only repeat a maximum of 2 jumps. In your case, you're repeating 3 jumps (The loop, the flip and the toe loop). Maybe either substitute one of the combos with a waltz-toe, or only do 1 combo (so 1lo, 1f, 1t, 1f-1t)

    or bring in the sal
    They are only repeating a couple of the jumps twice and in both cases doing those jumps in combination. If they did them solo (not in combination, then they would not be counted and thus marked invalid). So it is fine.

    Waltz jump would not counted for a combo because it is not a listed jump.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #14

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    Oh, thankyou AW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Waltz jump would not counted for a combo because it is not a listed jump.
    Since the rules clearly allow half jumps- "Only single and half - revolution jumps are permitted" how does this work since none of the half jumps (waltz, 1/2flip, 1/2lutz) are listed jumps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Since the rules clearly allow half jumps- "Only single and half - revolution jumps are permitted" how does this work since none of the half jumps (waltz, 1/2flip, 1/2lutz) are listed jumps?
    I think AW meant in terms of IJS calling? In the US, we don't use IJS for lower-level events (not even for regular gold, unless it's the championship version), but it sounds like they might in Australia. So she was telling misskarne a waltz jump wouldn't get any additional points. Maybe potential GOE's, if the combo is done well since entering it with a waltz is definitely harder than doing a 2-jump combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    I think AW meant in terms of IJS calling? In the US, we don't use IJS for lower-level events (not even for regular gold, unless it's the championship version), but it sounds like they might in Australia. So she was telling misskarne a waltz jump wouldn't get any additional points. Maybe potential GOE's, if the combo is done well since entering it with a waltz is definitely harder than doing a 2-jump combo.
    I'm just wondering how ISA rationalizes telling skaters jumps are useable in their program in the rulebook but then awards no points for them.

    Under IJS I thought half jumps DIDN'T take up a jump box, because they were unlisted jumps- but the way this rule is written, it seems they would count as a jump.

  18. #18

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    I thought waltz jumps were a counted jump for adults that got points (base value of 0.5 IIRC). In the Canadian system they are, and I assume that system is also in line with the requirements at Oberstdorf.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  19. #19

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    Skaters will not be penalised for doing half jumps but they won't count because they are not listed jumps. They are just not programmed in the IJS software - really that simple.

    Copper is really an encouragement level to provide adult skaters with an opportunity to start getting into competition. Also the skaters do not require an ISA test (Preliminary) to be able to do it which also helps because the idea of doing tests freaks a lot of skaters out. So it's focus is not on competitiveness but rather participation and encouragement. Quite a noble endeavour and it was a great achievement to get it included into the national rulebook last year at the ISA AGM (I was there ). It also helps build up participation numbers in the sport and provides a pathway between learn to skate and then the ISA structure.

    Australia has also set test levels to compete in adult divisions. Whilst this is not in the Obersdorf rules, ISA took the initiative to say that if you want to compete, you need to have a certain test level to be able to do it. So for Bronze you need to have a Preliminary test, Silver Elementary, etc. But you only need the pattern tests, not the program tests.

    As adults have the opportunity to compete at Australian Nationals, that is one of the reasons the test levels were implemented.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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