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  1. #181
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    I think Amanda has already served her time for the slander charges against Lumumba, so I am not concerned with those charges. I do not believe she murdered Meredith Kercher. No, I do not know all the facts that the Italian courts know. Of course I do not. No one in this thread does, as none of us are part of that court as far as I know. If anyone is, I would love to hear that person present the facts, though I doubt they would be allowed to disclose everything, in which case it is a moot point anyway.

    Based on the evidence I have been able to collect and read, which is probably more than some and less than others in this thread, I do not believe she killed Meredith, and I believe the court is wrong. Yes, I am biased by my own justice system - anyone would be, and I won't apologize for that. Every single person in this thread is making a judgment based on the facts they have been able - or willing - to collect and read. That is the way human beings operate, and that is what we do in every single thread on this website and in others. We give, argue, and discuss our opinions based on the facts we believe, in whatever way we came across them.

    I take exception to the people who have decided to accuse every single one of us who believe she is innocent of, essentially, being idiot, ignorant, egoistic Americans who don't know their assholes from their heads. I do not see a difference between our opinions, formed by the facts that we have read, and yours, except that we happen to have come to different conclusions. I do not have cable, I haven't been following this on the news, I sought out the information on my own, from both sides of the case. And I do believe that the evidence is inconclusive, to say the least. I believe she has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not know if reasonable doubt exists in Italian courts, but if it does not then I will say - and perhaps this does make me an egotistical American - that I think a person absolutely should always be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe in that right. And I do not believe they have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.

    And now I think I should stay away from this thread.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    It varies from country to country; in Italy, it's 17 points, which is more than some but less than others.
    Not sure what this means, but there you are.
    It means that everything we mention hides procedures, laws, labs, most of which differ from county to country, most of which would take long days to be reported in full complexity. A fingerprint, for example, isn't just universally such, even though we tend to treat it as such.

    Zippy wrote: "Some of us have plenty of science background to be able to understand the forensic details", and proceded to sum up the whole forensics of the case in a few lines. He/she should have been consulting the experts that struggled and fought on this case, filling up half a room with reports.



    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    Am I wrong to have the understanding that public opinion in Italy is strongly against Knox?
    I have no idea.
    I can however tell you that, because of Berlusconi, a good part of Italians despises judges, and a good part of italian media is just waiting for an opportunity to bash them.
    The town where Kercher was killed is strongly against this trial, and a conviction in particular: they couldn't care less about justice, but they do care about the business that students - foreign and american students in particular - bring there. Or used to bring there.
    Based on that, my guess would be no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Again, I am not suggesting that Knox is innocent or that the courts were wrong to convict her, only that the police procedure in her case was apparently not ideal and that her confession could be attributable to that.
    And again, I'm sure she's having every opportunity to point that out in court.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    No. Just like I do no have to know how to do a triple axel to be able to critique one, I do not have to be a lawyer and expert in the Italian criminal justice system to know injustice when I see it.
    Yes, you do have to know how a proper triple axel should be performed if you're going to critique one. Otherwise, on what basis would you critique?


    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    And yet we are supposed to believe that in this case everything is being done properly and that the conviction of Knox is sound. Sorry, don't buy it.
    I was actually surprised no one was picking up on that line, but here you are.

    Italy is heavily corrupted, but.

    As far as I'm aware of, not much has ever emerged on italian judges, and never to have a conviction, expecially when the other part is the State.
    The profession doesn't seem to be affected the same degree the country as a whole is.

    But let's say this might be a scenario that contemplates corruption.

    Who would be corrupting the judges to convict Sollecito and Knox? And where is the money coming from? This kind of corruption, with all the media attention and the US alert, must be expensive.

    Since you're not buying it, please answer my two questions.

    If I had to assume corruption was involved in this, and I'm not saying I think it is, I would guess it would be coming from the defendants.

    I already noted how Sollecito's lawyer, when he was sentenced not guilty, was sitting in the parlament, associated with Berlusconi, and head of the justice commettee.
    She could have impacted the professional lives of the judges, which I believe is a huge conflict, and stinks.
    Also, being associated with Berlusconi does not present someone as astranged to corruption or other filthy methods, quite the opposite.

    And finally, the defendants have strong motives that could push some people in their position to turn to corruption. But I don't see motives for corruption elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    There is EVERY reason to believe that Knox will not get justice. It's a classic case of "we screwed up in the beginning so now we have to scramble to make it seem like we didn't."
    Let me see if I get this straight: you're assuming the judges are convicting Sollecito and Knox without solid evidence, they are putting their career at risk, they are exposing themselves (!) to the US media and US diplomacy, they are causing a riff that could endanger the relatioship amongst countries like Italy, the UK and the US, to cover up a possible mess made by some small town, low ranked police?


    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    The trial documents are easily available online. Some of us have plenty of science background to be able to understand the forensic details and problems with the prosecution's evidence.
    You are a wonder.
    Me, I was wondering; if you could sum up, effectively and efficiently as you're capable of, the 14 flags the Supreme Court raised, regarding the first appeal.
    I tried to look at pieces of the originals, had to read them twice, and still had trouble fully understanding them.
    Can you help?
    Last edited by loulou; 02-03-2014 at 12:45 AM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    When you falsely accuse someone of as serious a crime as murder, then yes.
    Surely there is a difference between voluntarily filing a false police report and making false statements after undergoing custodial interrogation for several days without an attorney and your instinct for self-preservation kicks in, no? Otherwise, you might as well prosecute people who made stuff up when they were subjected to waterboarding by the U.S. and its minions.

    ETA: FWIW, filing a false police report is normally a misdemeanor in the United States and does not necessarily involve defamation.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 02-03-2014 at 12:54 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    Am I wrong to have the understanding that public opinion in Italy is strongly against Knox? Wasn't there a public outcry (with a "hurricane of critiques") following the second trial when she and Sollecito were acquitted?
    From what I've read, you're totally correct that public opinion in Italy is strongly against Knox.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    It means that everything we mention hides procedures, laws, labs, most of which differ from county to country, most of which would take long days to be reported in full complexity. A fingerprint, for example, isn't just universally such, even though we tend to treat it as such.
    And again, what is your point? If there were no Knox or Sollecito fingerprints found at the murder scene by Italian legal standards, then there were no fingerprints to consider as evidence in the court case.

    I think it would be bizarre in the extreme to look at evidence that wasn't part of the actual case. The issue is not whether or not there was evidence other than what was used in court, but whether the evidence that was used in court was sufficient.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Based on that, my guess would be no.
    Then why has it been widely reported that there were demonstrations in the street and outrage by a large portion of the populace when the guilty verdict was overturned?

    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Yes, you do have to know how a proper triple axel should be performed if you're going to critique one. Otherwise, on what basis would you critique?
    What I said was that it is possible to have that knowledge -- of how a triple axel is properly performed -- without being able to perform a triple axel oneself. Therefore, your question makes no sense.

    Who would be corrupting the judges to convict Sollecito and Knox? And where is the money coming from? This kind of corruption, with all the media attention and the US alert, must be expensive.
    It's about saving face. Upholding the conviction saves face for the country.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    So I guess this means this will be your last post on the subject.
    No, it doesn't.
    It's not pointless at all to discuss how opinions are formed.


    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    I do not believe she murdered Meredith Kercher. No, I do not know all the facts that the Italian courts know. Of course I do not. No one in this thread does, as none of us are part of that court as far as I know. If anyone is, I would love to hear that person present the facts, though I doubt they would be allowed to disclose everything, in which case it is a moot point anyway.

    I take exception to the people who have decided to accuse every single one of us who believe she is innocent of, essentially, being idiot, ignorant, egoistic Americans who don't know their assholes from their heads. I do not see a difference between our opinions, formed by the facts that we have read, and yours, except that we happen to have come to different conclusions.
    I'm hoping this has nothing to do with me, though my english is never conveing my points sharply enough.

    Everyone is entitled to believe Knox is innocent.
    You migth feel like convicting her is a tragic mistake.
    But, by your own admission, your judgement and everyone else's in here, isn't an educated one. It couldn't possibly be. People who do that for a living spent months on the case.

    My point (on this thread, not directed to you) is you can have a feeling, and call it an opinion, but you can't claim unjust, not by the law, which societies chose over anarchy.

    Because I wouldn't see anything in the past or in the present that could bias this against Knox, or that could lead to think judges are uncapable, or that Knox isn't well represented and heard.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    What I said was that it is possible to have that knowledge -- of how a triple axel is properly performed -- without being able to perform a triple axel oneself.
    As you point out, you have to have the knowledge.
    To say that the rules are unjust or that they are broken, you should know the procedures, the laws, the science, what laws work better when in place, and where.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    It's about saving face. Upholding the conviction saves face for the country.
    You have a weird sense of what saves a face.
    If you make a huge and tragic mistake as unjustly convicting two young people, you can only save your face by correcting it.
    You certainly do not save your face, infact you make matters worse, if you hold to your mistakes, once you're aware and convinced of them.


    Also, I made you two questions you hadn't answered.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    but you can't claim unjust, not by the law, which societies chose over anarchy.
    By that logic, I can't fight against female circumcision in other countries.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Innocent people make false confessions while undergoing custodial investigations, especially when the investigation is prolonged and certain basic principles of human rights (such as access to an attorney and, if a foreigner, access to consular assistance) are not followed.

    ...I don't think Amanda Knox should be blamed for having lied in custody.
    I'm struck by the claim that Amanda made incriminating statement when she was secretly recorded speaking to her mother. How would that be connected to at all to false confessions under custodial investigation? I would think if Amanda did indeed just make it up, she would have said something to that effect when she spoke with her mom privately. But apparently that's not what happened.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    And again, what is your point? If there were no Knox or Sollecito fingerprints found at the murder scene by Italian legal standards, then there were no fingerprints to consider as evidence in the court case.

    I think it would be bizarre in the extreme to look at evidence that wasn't part of the actual case. The issue is not whether or not there was evidence other than what was used in court, but whether the evidence that was used in court was sufficient.
    My understanding is that the forensics science has been the key point for the convinction overturn in the first appeal, the science was the main controversy.
    How can we sum up in a few lines a controvery that lies in the science, in its possible interpretations and its possible manifestations, without mentioning those? without owning the science nor all the files of the trial?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    By that logic, I can't fight against female circumcision in other countries.
    No, unless you're saying in this case were applied barbarian laws.

    Why did the US sign an extradition treaty with Italy if Italy had such brutal laws?
    Why didn't the US government warn citizens Italy was dangerous in that way?

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I'm struck by the claim that Amanda made incriminating statement when she was secretly recorded speaking to her mother. How would that be connected to at all to false confessions under custodial investigation? I would think if Amanda did indeed just make it up, she would have said something to that effect when she spoke with her mom privately. But apparently that's not what happened.
    It is my understanding that this was one of the reasons that made the Supreme Court raise a flag over Knox initial statements.
    From what I was able to get, they said that while her statements couldn't be considered as the plot of the story, they couldn't have been disregarded entirely either, unless further justification to this choice was provided - hence, ordered the new appeal, which led to this last conviction.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Why did the US sign an extradition treaty with Italy if Italy had such brutal laws?
    If the US could ignore Mussolini for a butt-long time, it can ignore a lot.
    Last edited by heckles; 02-03-2014 at 02:30 AM.

  15. #195
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    An interesting read at - http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com, particularly /evidence. IMO, it's not difficult to conclude "guilty".

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I want an opinion on the question of the lack of DNA of both Knox and boyfriend at the crime scene. How could they have done it? I have trouble believing in their guilt without DNA present.
    According to the link above, and in a translation of the Italian court findings, Amanda's DNA is indeed found at the crime scene (as is her boyfriend's), in multiple places.

    Not sure where the story arose that no DNA evidence from Knox was present

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    I know so little about the case that I truly have no opinion about guilt or innocence. But I do wonder if she'll "escape." Is it easier now or harder to vanish from sight? Can she settle into a reasonably comfortable life somewhere or is she too well known internationally to become a new persona in a different world?

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    According to the link above, and in a translation of the Italian court findings, Amanda's DNA is indeed found at the crime scene (as is her boyfriend's), in multiple places.

    Not sure where the story arose that no DNA evidence from Knox was present
    Because the DNA was found in the apartment but not in Meredith's room. The mixed DNA was found in the bathroom. The other DNA was on a knife and the bra clasp; see zippy's posts for why those findings were disputed.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Why did the US sign an extradition treaty with Italy if Italy had such brutal laws?
    Signing an extradition treaty does not mean forfeiting constitutional protections of basic rights. Thus, Italy, for example, which has no death penalty, will not extradite a criminal defendant to a jurisdiction in which he might face the death penalty. Instead, Italy would require the prosecution to waive the death penalty.

    If you don't like this, and think Italy should be extraditing people to face the death penalty, go tell your own government, not ours.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I'm struck by the claim that Amanda made incriminating statement when she was secretly recorded speaking to her mother. How would that be connected to at all to false confessions under custodial investigation? I would think if Amanda did indeed just make it up, she would have said something to that effect when she spoke with her mom privately. But apparently that's not what happened.
    The statements she made to her mother were very confused and vague. And mostly about Lumumba. She certainly didn't tell her mother that she killed Knox or any incriminating details.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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