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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Siouxs View Post
    A lot of lawyers contribute to Wiki.
    ANYONE can....

    Legal synopsis of a 5 year case in 500 words...yes, that's informed? Here lies my point. No one outside of the court is remotely informed and the arrogance/ignorance to claim otherwise is, well, typically American.

  2. #102
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  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    What happened to his book?
    That question may also be the answer

    I read that the prosecutor said that it was impossible for one person to have committed the murder. Why was that
    The nature of her injuries were such that police don't believe one person alone could have done it, as per this article:

    This article is interesting, but I saw that press conference and I think the assertion that the family believe Amanda and Rafaele are guilty is an assumption because they didn't say it. They never said it. Her sister said something about how they may never know what happened that night, how they aren't judges or jury or detectives. Her brother explained why the police and courts believe they were involved, but neither ever said "we think they did it". It's been inferred.

    I really think they're just putting their faith in the justice system and hoping for the best, because if you read what they said, word for word, they don't know what happened or what to believe.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    With all due respect, Prancer, the issue is not that I can interpret the evidence differently but rather, that my own ego is not so inflated that I believe myself to be more informed, intelligent or competent than the Italian legal system.
    I can certainly understand your reticence, given that opinions expressed on this board carry the full weight of the law and therefore we must all exercise full caution in what we say here, else justice not be served.

    I hadn't actually thought to solicit an opinion from you, as you had announced that you were leaving this thread, but thank you for returning and adding your always constructive comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    That question may also be the answer
    I looked it up, He did publish it. I couldn't find anything about how well it sold or didn't, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen*
    I really think they're just putting their faith in the justice system and hoping for the best, because if you read what they said, word for word, they don't know what happened or what to believe.
    I don't understand why anyone would think the Kerchers are the bad guys in all this, even if they did believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved. This has got to be deadly for them, dragging on as it has and still will, and they probably never will get an answer.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I can certainly understand your reticence, given that opinions expressed on this board carry the full weight of the law and therefore we must all exercise full caution in what we say here, else justice not be served.

    .
    Colloquial English will do, Prancer, note the forum

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekatiivi View Post
    No sympathy for Kercher family anymore, their bitterness will not bring Meredith back. My heart goes completely out for these two young people who's lives have been ruined because of people feel need to reach some kind of sick atonement.
    I have a lot more sympathy for a family whose loved one was murdered than for a liar who was happy to implicate an innocent man in a murder.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer
    Er, yes, that's true. It's just that you have to have grounds on which to appeal, so it's not always done.
    Well, one would hope that the convicted person would have grounds. But, whether or not they do, they have the right for appeal in a criminal case. The appeal is only the decision whether to overturn the original conviction, not a retrial. So, with no grounds, the appeal would likely affirm the original decision.

    And it seems that judicial fault was found in the re-trial: Strongly critical of the Perugia appeals court's handling of the case, the cassation court alleged that there had been a litany of procedural failures: a "manifest lack of logic" here, a "bald assertion with no factual basis" there, even, at one point, "factual deductions deriving from a series of conjectures and baseless suppositions".
    I think this whole thing has been mishandled from day one. And this new claim that it wasn't a sex orgy gone wrong and that it was over housekeeping, just confirms it for me. How could they be that wrong and have any credibility?

    Just an FYI, According to my expert (husband) double jeopardy would not apply here, as Knox was originally found guilty. So, if the new guilty verdict holds up, Knox can be extradited in accordance with US law.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    That's the thing, though; the book would be different. A jury here might not convict on the same evidence; some evidence may or may not have been admitted; any number of things could have resulted in a different outcome.
    If they had been convicted and appealed, the success or failure of the appeal would also depend on what occurred at that specific trial.
    This is very true. Different country, different rules (some might be worse, some might be better), different judges, different lawyers, different juries. And yet, people still feel free to call it unjust.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I'm a lawyer, but have next to no experience in criminal law.

    As I understand it, the evidence is the testimony of Rudy Guede, who was convicted of Meredith Kercher's murder:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Guede#Rudy_Guede



    As for Raffaele Sollecito:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_...aele_Sollecito



    I'd say he was framed and she is being convicted on the testimony of a murderer with whom she apparently had only a passing acquaintance.
    You should have been consulting for this last trial, being so concise and effective.
    The president of the Appeal Cout was just saying it was challenging for them to navigate throughout all the legal papers and the 30 expertise testimonies that were produced, plus instruct the jury on how to fully understand the above. Apparently, documents take up a room.


    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    What doesn't match? The appeal is always granted. I am confused as to what is confusing you.
    I'll be back to that in a sec.

    ETA: see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by OliviaPug View Post
    Convicted defendants can ALWAYS request an appeal. Whether or not the appellate court will grant the appeal and/or whether the appeal will be successful is quite another matter, and depends, in large part, on the grounds for appeal.
    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Loulou, I asked my husband, and I will try to explain as best I can. In a criminal case, you are always entitled to an appeal, if you are convicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    No; appeals are only granted if there is a finding of judicial error in the initial trial.Whether or not there would have been an appeal granted in this case would have depended on the trial. I don't think you can say one way or another, given the differences in systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Actually, that is not correct. Appeals are always granted in criminal cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Just to clarify, an appeal in the US is a review of a csse--not another trial. So while a review may take place, that doesn't mean the case may be retried by another court.
    Confusing enough for me.
    Last edited by loulou; 02-01-2014 at 02:30 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    I have a lot more sympathy for a family whose loved one was murdered than for a liar who was happy to implicate an innocent man in a murder.
    I have more sympathy for a family who lost their precious daughter, as well. But, we don't really know how the "lie" was exacted from Knox. Was she led into it? And just because she appears to have lied, doesn't make her a killer or participant. Should she spend her life in jail for a crime she may not have committed, because she lied? Understanding she may have been manipulated and/or coerced into the lie?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I have more sympathy for a family who lost their precious daughter, as well.
    You have more sympathy for the Knox than for the Kerchers?


    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    But, we don't really know how the "lie" was exacted from Knox. Was she led into it? And just because she appears to have lied, doesn't make her a killer or participant. Should she spend her life in jail for a crime she may not have committed, because she lied? Understanding she may have been manipulated and/or coerced into the lie?
    This has been discussed before (I believe after the Supreme Court verdict). Knox is not and will never be convicted of murder because she lied.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    You have more sympathy for the Knox than for the Kerchers?
    No, I was agreeing with Allezfred, that I have more sympathy for the Kerchers (the family who lost their precious daughter), as well. The Knox family did not lose their daughter, they still have her. Knox has suffered, her family has suffered, but not as much as the Kerchers. Sorry, if I wasn't clear.

    My other point was to Allezfred, that she may have lied, but that doesn't make her a killer.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    With all due respect, Prancer, the issue is not that I can interpret the evidence differently but rather, that my own ego is not so inflated that I believe myself to be more informed, intelligent or competent than the Italian legal system.
    You must have a very low opinion of yourself.

    Insight: Overloaded justice system ties Italy in knots

    Falsifying a one euro ($1.33) bus ticket in Italy is a criminal offence eligible for a full trial and two appeals that would cost the state many thousands of euros.

    The U.S. Supreme Court reviews around 100 appeals per year. The number for Italy's top appeal court, serving a population a fifth the size? More than 80,000.

    Italy has 40,000 lawyers specializing in supreme court cases. According to Valerio Spigarelli, head of Italy's top criminal lawyers body, the number in neighboring France, with a similar population, is 25. They are among 240,000 lawyers in Italy, compared to 54,000 in the country next door.

    Statistics like this give a glimpse into a chaotic, byzantine legal system which not only reduces citizens to despair and has senior judges tearing out their hair, but acts as a serious disincentive to foreign companies planning to invest and a powerful brake on the euro zone's third economy....

    There is a backlog of around nine million cases, 5.5 million civil and 3.4 million criminal.

    Italy is the fourth most litigious of 38 European countries with 2.8 million new cases being brought last year alone.

    The state paid 84 million euros in compensation for miscarriages of justice and legal delays in 2011. There were nearly 50,000 such claims compared to 3,500 in 2003. Another 46 million euros was paid out to people unjustly thrown in jail.

    Some 42 percent of those in jail or 28,000 people, are awaiting trial and the prison population is 68,000 in institutions intended to hold 45,000.

    U.S. Chief Justice John G. Roberts could not believe how many cases were brought before Italy's supreme Court of Cassation each year, said Michele Vietti, vice president of Italy's top magistrates body the CSM, describing a recent visit to Washington.

    "He thought he hadn't understood the translation properly," Vietti told Reuters....

    "The Cassation is submerged by so many cases that it cannot even ascertain contradictions within the system," said Davigo, who is now a supreme court judge. He added there was no law of precedent because the judges could not read all the cases.
    Edmond Arapi wins payout from Italian court for wrongful murder conviction

    A Staffordshire man wrongly accused of murder in Italy and held in prison for weeks under a European arrest warrant has been awarded major damages in a precedent-setting case. The decision has been hailed as a warning to judges and prosecutors throughout Europe not to grant such arrest warrants without examining the evidence closely.

    In 2006, Edmond Arapi, 31, an Albanian who came legally to the United Kingdom in 2000 was convicted in his absence of a murder in Genoa, Italy and sentenced to 16 years. Arapi, who works as a chef in Leek, Staffordshire, was unaware of the case until he was arrested at Gatwick airport in 2009 on his return from a family holiday in Fier, Albania. He has only been out of the UK on two occasions since he first arrived and had never been to Genoa.
    Italian court awards record damages

    An appeals court in Genoa has ordered the Italian Government to pay $4m compensation to a Milan businessman, who was mistakenly convicted and sentenced to jail for drug trafficking.

    He drove the same car as a well known cocaine dealer and police finally admitted they had arrested the wrong man.

    By awarding unprecedented damages for false imprisonment, the court attempted to compensate Daniele Barilla - a successful businessman who was only 30-years-old at the time of his arrest - for having spent over seven years in jail for an offence he did not commit.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Confusing enough for me.
    Yes, I thought you meant my post was confusing within itself. I was unsure with my first post. I then asked my husband who has been a trial lawyer for 40 years. Also spoke to my son and his girlfriend, recent law school graduates. Son, a new associate in a law firm, GF is clerking for a Judge. It was explained to me, I now understand the law. So, I provided it for you in my later post.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    With all due respect, Prancer, the issue is not that I can interpret the evidence differently but rather, that my own ego is not so inflated that I believe myself to be more informed, intelligent or competent than the Italian legal system.
    Maybe we just find the part of the Italian legal system that declared Knox not guilty due to having not committed the crime to be really extra informed, intelligent, and competent?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I have more sympathy for a family who lost their precious daughter, as well. But, we don't really know how the "lie" was exacted from Knox. Was she led into it? And just because she appears to have lied, doesn't make her a killer or participant. Should she spend her life in jail for a crime she may not have committed, because she lied? Understanding she may have been manipulated and/or coerced into the lie?
    And not only that, but is it even a lie if she's innocent of the murder? How could it be a lie if she wasn't there, and didn't know whether or not Mr. Lumumba committed the crime? If we take her version as fact for a minute (since the interrogation wasn't recorded), the police told her they had proof that Lumumba was the killer and wanted her to imagine what it was like if she was at the apartment while he did it. How would she know she was pointing her finger at an innocent man if she herself wasn't there and didn't know what happened?

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    I agree with this statement. The Kerchers are victims of the botched justice system. I really don't know what I think about Amanda's innocence or guilt.
    Sorry. Have to take issue with that assertion. If it a botched legal system then both sides are victims.... Not just the people with whom you agree. We'll never know what happened. I haven't seen any postings by anyone who had access to the trial or transcripts.

    From an American justice prospective... Which is scewed to the defendant the last decision is nuts. It was my understanding that the first appeal was granted and won on the basis of evidence regarding do a that was not allowed in to the first trial.
    We, the CSI generation expect a neat package of truth or the video of the crime.. Hence we get Casey Anthony.

    The parents want someone to blame... Shoot everyone does. It seems to me, standing in my California home, wondering about it, that the Italian courts are messy silliness. But I have no clue who is not a victim.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    I'm a lawyer, quotes Wikipedia,
    Wikipedia can actually be a reliable source because there are usually footnotes provided for the assertions and facts stated in the article that you can look up for yourself and determine how reliable the original/primary sources are. I would never cite to wikipedia itself for a paper I am writing, but I have found it useful for a basic breakdown of a subject and the sources provided in the footnotes are usually great for much more specific information (if I find the link provided to be a valid source). Anyway, I find that a lot more useful than blindly believing in the Italian Justice system (or any system). Maybe it's because I'm a cynic, but I don't automatically assume justice was served just because a jury decided one way. If all the Amanda Knox is guilty people maybe provided some more compelling reasons than calling Americans moronic and arrogant, then I'd be more willing to accept those theories, but I haven't really heard any compelling arguments from that side. Instead, all I see is anti-American bitterness or some people stretching to make small statements a valid point but the subtext is quite clear.

    Anyway, I understand the sensitivity and I'm not here to make sweeping generalizations about the Italian legal system and about how flawed it is. I'm just interested in this specific case because I've never seen someone convicted, retried then found not guilty, then have that overturned and then found guilty again and now going through an appeals process.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 02-01-2014 at 06:03 PM.
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  18. #118
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    cnn article.

    Reading the article, I don't think there's enough evidence to convincingly link Knox and the boyfriend to the murder.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    ANYONE can....

    Legal synopsis of a 5 year case in 500 words...yes, that's informed? Here lies my point. No one outside of the court is remotely informed and the arrogance/ignorance to claim otherwise is, well, typically American.
    Surely this would apply to you as well, yes?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Wikipedia can actually be a reliable source because there are usually footnotes provided for the assertions and facts stated in the article that you can look up for yourself and determine how reliable the original/primary sources are. I would never cite to wikipedia itself for a paper I am writing, but I have found it useful for a basic breakdown of a subject and the sources provided in the footnotes are usually great for much more specific information (if I find the link provided to be a valid source). Anyway, I find that a lot more useful than blindly believing in the Italian Justice system (or any system). Maybe it's because I'm a cynic, but I don't automatically assume justice was served just because a jury decided one way. If all the Amanda Knox is guilty people maybe provided some more compelling reasons than calling Americans moronic and arrogant, then I'd be more willing to accept those theories, but I haven't really heard any compelling arguments from that side. Instead, all I see is anti-American bitterness or some people stretching to make small statements a valid point but the subtext is quite clear.

    Anyway, I understand the sensitivity and I'm not here to make sweeping generalizations about the Italian legal system and about how flawed it is. I'm just interested in this specific case because I've never seen someone convicted, retried then found not guilty, then have that overturned and then found guilty again and now going through an appeals process.
    Well said.

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