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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    In the USA she could not have been charged again after being released with a Not Guilty verdict- am I correct?
    The murder was committed in Italy though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHARPIE View Post
    LOL at all the 'Poor Amanda!' handwringing! . Oh well, she can make plenty of money appearing on Oprah now.

    I'd rather save my sympathies for the Kercher family thanks!
    I really can't understand why people think she is innocent. Yes, only circumstantial evidence but enough of it exists and she didn't exactly help her case with perjury.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Is there a limit to the number of trials that could be held under Italian law? How long could this go on?
    As far as I understand it, until the Supreme Court issues its ruling, since it's the highest court of appeal.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 01-31-2014 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #22

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    Didn't the "perjury" occur after hours of interrogation?

    In the US, perjury is when you lie under oath, so in an affidavit or a deposition or when testifying in a trial.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    Yep! People are in prison all around the world for things they didn't do...and the US isn't an exception. How many men have been executed and then proven innocent? Amanda did make some bad decisions and I don't think the evidence is there that she OR Rafael did it, but she's made a fortune while the Kercher family couldn't even all afford plane fares to go to the trial. In all this legal and media circus, let's not forget a murder did happen and an innocent girl died.
    Executed and proven innocent? Not that many, actually, unless you go further back in history. But the Innocence Project does have a long list of people who were exonerated after being falsely convicted, some of whom died in prison or not too long after being released, and I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    I don't know enough about this case to say anything about Knox's guilt or innocence, but I am inclined to be sympathetic first of all to Meredith Kercher's family. Still, if Knox is indeed innocent, it doesn't matter if she's a nice person or not - spending years in jail for something you didn't do sucks.

  4. #24
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    Also: Arizona's home page? Seriously, Vash?

    The BBC article sums up the whole story quite well and in quite an objective manner as well:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25941999

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Didn't the "perjury" occur after hours of interrogation?

    In the US, perjury is when you lie under oath, so in an affidavit or a deposition or when testifying in a trial.
    Again, the murder and the trial happened in Italy and not the US.

    You can feel free to replace 'perjury' with 'lying to the police' and 'changing her story' if you want, though. My point is that it didn't help her case and it didn't exactly make her look innocent.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 01-31-2014 at 02:41 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Executed and proven innocent? Not that many, actually, unless you go further back in history.
    1 is too many, IMO. There have been at least 3 cases I can recall in recent time where an innocent person was executed.


    But the number of people who have been exonerated before they were executed is enough evidence to me that we shouldn't be executing. Those people were only NOT executed because of tireless work by others; how many people does that not happen for?


    If Knox is innocence, I absolutely feel horrible for her. Feeling badly that someone's life has been ruined doesn't mean you don't also feel horribly for the girl who lost her life and her family who has had to deal with it. If Knox was not involved she should not be made to suffer just because Meredith's family needs closure. She has already served her time for lying.

  6. #26

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    In law school, I did a lot of work on innocent defendants and the whole "phenomenon" of how innocent people get convicted in the US. Many of them confessed after being subjected to duress, or were implicated by others who had been subjected to duress, or were implicated by solid witnesses who really believed they were the one that did it, when in fact they weren't.

    So based on what I learned, I am not inclined to think someone who lies to the police during an intense interrogation or after an intense experience to be a person of bad character. It is nothing like a lie in the course of a normal day. Sometimes it's not even affirmative statements but repeating what the interrogator stated in hopes that would bring the process to an end. After what I've learned, I can't even view it as an indication of guilt. It's all very messy.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Is there a limit to the number of trials that could be held under Italian law? How long could this go on?
    As far as I understand it, the way it has played out:

    The initial conviction had to be vacated after the DNA evidence was proven to be unreliable. So the case went to the Court of Cassation, which has decided to send it back to trial. The trial ended with a guilty verdict. Knox and Solecito are lodging an appeal and the case is going to go to the Italian Supreme Court, which is the highest instance, and its verdict will be final.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    1 is too many, IMO. There have been at least 3 cases I can recall in recent time where an innocent person was executed.

    But the number of people who have been exonerated before they were executed is enough evidence to me that we shouldn't be executing. Those people were only NOT executed because of tireless work by others; how many people does that not happen for?
    Who are you referring to? I know there were doubts about Troy Davis's guilt, but nothing conclusive. Cameron Todd Willingham was most likely innocent, though, since he was convicted of murder by arson and evidence points to there being no arson. Anyway, I agree, one is still too many, and you read about cases like that of Anthony Graves (also here) and it's clear that some people were convicted and sentenced to death on the flimsiest of evidence. But even if there weren't so many exonerations, I'd still be opposed to the death penalty.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHARPIE View Post
    I'd rather save my sympathies for the Kercher family thanks!
    Some people have enough of a sense of sympathy that they can feel it for more than one family.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 02-01-2014 at 12:38 AM. Reason: Substituting "they" for "the."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Who are you referring to? I know there were doubts about Troy Davis's guilt, but nothing conclusive. Cameron Todd Willingham was most likely innocent, though, since he was convicted of murder by arson and evidence points to there being no arson.
    Okay, I had to go search and see if I could figure out the names of the people since I was only remembering their cases: Carlos DeLuna, Cameron Todd Willingham, and Johnny Garrett were the ones I was thinking of.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I think Rafael was kind of nuts to stay in Italy while this was a possibility.

    I don't know where he could have safely gone, but ... I would not want to be him right now. Obviously I don't think they committed the crimes they are accused of.
    The problem is that (as someone else said) that would have made him look guilty. And, even with a passport (which I am sure he had - as I remember him visiting Knox in Seattle) he would need a visa for an extended stay, anywhere. I don't think running would have helped him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Again, the murder and the trial happened in Italy and not the US.

    You can feel free to replace 'perjury' with 'lying to the police' and 'changing her story' if you want, though. My point is that it didn't help her case and it didn't exactly make her look innocent.
    As Coco already said, after hours of intense police interrogation, plenty of people have admitted to things they didn't do. They may have overtly admitted or implied guilt. But, police can ask questions in a manner that can be confusing and/or manipulative, to get an answer they want. The Italian police screwed up the crime scene, the DNA was not the only thing that was compromised. They wanted a conviction and probably didn't care how they got it. And I don't say this lightly, seeing as how everyone here knows how much I love Italy.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    We don't know what Amada did or did not do, but she was declared not guilty after spending 4 years in an Italian prison. In the USA she could not have been charged again after being released with a Not Guilty verdict- am I correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by genevieve View Post
    Correct, and sources say the US could refuse extradition on this basis. I'm not sure I support holding US citizens to US legal standards when they are in other countries, but I do think the Italian courts have been essentially a clown car on this case.
    Not quite. Knox was sentenced guilty on first degree trial, and by US standards she would not have been granted an appeal - hence, she would have been serving, period. Italian law grants second degree trial and further appeal to supreme court, after first degree trial, which is why Knox is now free in the US. US lawyers pointed that out.

    One could also speculate that in every country, given an unlimited number of tries, a verdict could change. If the lawyers change, if the experts change, if the jury changes, if the judges change, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    At least Amanda is here in the states. I think no way will she be extradited.
    I think you think right. Doesn't mean it is right, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    That's a perfect description of this fiasco. Same thing when the Italian courts sentenced six scientists to six years in prison (and a $10 million fine) for not predicting the earthquake that struck L'Aquila in 2009.
    You should rethink your sources: people that died in L'Aquila earthquake were told they could go home and rest reassured. That's why the scientists were sentenced guilty. No one ever sentenced them for not predictiong earthquakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Is there a limit to the number of trials that could be held under italian law? How long could this go on?
    I've answered this once before, and got it wrong (warned though I was unsure). The correct answer would be no.

    For most crimes there's statute of limitation, which doesn't stop once the trial has begun. This is why italian trials are designed to be so long: it's a get out of jail card, that everyone with enough money to stretch things along can buy. Berlusconi's justice troubles accentuated the issue, since he wrote laws meant for this exact purpuse.

    There's no statute of limitation for murder though. So further appeals can always be asked for and granted. Only the Supreme Court can state a definitive sentence: validating, changing partially or totally the previous one; and the Supreme Court's job is only on merit and method (is the sentence legally sound? is it logically sound?), they cannot issue a trial of their own. If the Supreme Court feels like thay don't have enough to sentence they can order a further trial. In Knox case, the Supreme Court issued 14 points of the second degree trial sentence that they found not logically and legally sound, and that's what this last trial was about.

    I'll briefly write about one of those: Amanda's first false declarations.
    When the investigation still hadn't supsects or taken turns, Amanda said that Lumumba had killed Meredith, and that she was in the house and heard the whole thing, she described it in details that match what happened, and were later on confirmed by killer Guede.
    The second degree trial disregarded entirely her declarations, perahps, they said, pressured out of Know.
    Supreme Court noted that, although those declarations could be hold as substanl truth, they could not be disregarded either.
    Because Amanda told them to the police; later on, when she was alone, she wrote them down in her own hand writing and gave the papers to the police; and again later, she repeated the same things to her mother, when the two of them thought they were having a private conversation. So pressure could be seriously questioned.
    Also, she was sentenced guilty of defamation against Lumumba (definitive sentence) based on that declarations, which, evidently, were considered valid in that trial.
    So, in short and not complete, this is one of the 14 issues the Supreme Court asked for more.
    Last edited by loulou; 01-31-2014 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    Not quite. Knox was sentenced guilty on first degree trial, and by US standards she would not have been granted an appeal


    Criminal defendants in the United States do have the right of appeal. As to convicition would have been affirmed or reversed, with a new trial to follow, or even reversed and voided for prosecutorial misconduct, we can only speculate.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    In the USA she could not have been charged again after being released with a Not Guilty verdict- am I correct?
    Nothing to brag abut, surely!


    I love how most Americans are experts on this case based on some CNN reports and an Interview on [insert tripe morning show].

    I'm quite confident that the Italian courts can decipher the evidence ....It's regrettable that it took so long, but pleasing that mistakes can be acknowledged and rulings over turned accordingly.

    Amanda Knox is now a proven murderer. . .
    Last edited by poths; 01-31-2014 at 04:42 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    As far as I understand it, the way it has played out:

    The initial conviction had to be vacated after the DNA evidence was proven to be unreliable. So the case went to the Court of Cassation, which has decided to send it back to trial. The trial ended with a guilty verdict. Knox and Solecito are lodging an appeal and the case is going to go to the Italian Supreme Court, which is the highest instance, and its verdict will be final.
    Oh good, there is an end in site. Thanks.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    At least Amanda is here in the states (thanks to Columbus) I think no way will she be extradited (thanks to a mean low intelligence of the population)

    I feel so badly for Rafael! (see former point)
    I need to leave this thread. Moronic, sentimental, uninformed statements like those above, slightly enrage me.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Nothing to brag abut, surely!
    ????

    I think most Americans see value in our double jeopardy laws, something guaranteed to us by our Constitution. Certainly, I don't recall any charge to change them.

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    I really feel for Amanda and Rafaello. No one should be sentenced without clear evidence, ever. In this case, there are absolutely no clear evidence (if any) against Amanda and Rafaello. Guede was sentenced and his DNA was all over the murder scene with no trace of Amanda or Rafaello. The end. No sympathy for Kercher family anymore, their bitterness will not bring Meredith back. My heart goes completely out for these two young people who's lives have been ruined because of people feel need to reach some kind of sick atonement.

    I have personally felt how it feels to have your family member to be drag trough courts for something they did not do. Years after years. This happens to innocent people all the time. Living in suspicion and shame and uncertainly really breaks you down mentally. It ruins more than one persons life: the whole family is torn apart. And only because people have need to have someone to blame. All those years made me a very sick person and I don't know if I can ever get better. I hope things turn out better for Knox and Sollecito family than they did for my family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHARPIE View Post
    LOL at all the 'Poor Amanda!' handwringing! . Oh well, she can make plenty of money appearing on Oprah now.


    I'd rather save my sympathies for the Kercher family thanks!
    You took the words out of my mouth. And yes, I have enough sympathy for more than one person or family. It's just that I don't know Amanda & I have no idea if she deserves my sympathy. The Kercher family clearly does.

    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Nothing to brag abut, surely!


    I love how most Americans are experts on this case based on some CNN reports and an Interview on [insert tripe morning show].
    I have been thinking the same thing ever since I even heard of this murder, not just about Americans but about anyone who weighed in with a definite guilty or innocent verdict. Unless a person has seen & heard all evidence & unless he/she was in the courtroom or read all the transcripts, I don't see how anyone can be so convinced they know she did or did not do it.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post


    Criminal defendants in the United States do have the right of appeal. As to convicition would have been affirmed or reversed, with a new trial to follow, or even reversed and voided for prosecutorial misconduct, we can only speculate.
    You are correct. I am not sure what the lawyers loulou referenced were talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post

    I'm quite confident that the Italian courts can decipher the evidence ....It's regrettable that it took so long, but pleasing that mistakes can be acknowledged and rulings over turned accordingly.

    Amanda Knox is now a proven murderer. . .
    And she was also proven not guilty. Whether or not the Italian courts are capable is one thing. However, it is clear that the police botched this. DNA was going to be an issue, simply due to the fact that Amanda lived there. Of course her DNA would be in the rooms. However, it was the layering (if you will). There was no DNA positioned to indicate that Knox was in contact with the crime scene during or after the murder. There was nothing on Knox or Sollecito to indicate they were participants. They behaved strangely, yes. But that could have been for a number of reasons: they had been doing drugs and were afraid of getting caught for that, confusion, shock, fear. None of those things prove they killed her or were involved. We, also, were not present at the interrogation. We have no clear idea of how Knox was questioned and how her answers may or may not have been misrepresented. Interrogation is meant to confuse and get the person to loose track of their statements and admit something. It can also cause a person to admit to things they did not actually understand. Especially in a language they are not fluent in. I cannot say, with certainty, that she had nothing to do with any of it. I can say, that I don't believe she did, based on the evidence. Or rather lack of evidence.

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