Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 141
  1. #41

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,226
    vCash
    5550
    Rep Power
    17487
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedySucks View Post
    They desperately need to do something to improve the speed and musicality of footwork sequences. Current footwork sequences take up too much time and they often do not express the music at all. I miss footwork sequences that fly down the ice and really get the crowd involved in the program.
    The choreographic sequence would be a good place to do one of those (though admittedly I don't specifically remember much about the choreo sequences most skaters have been doing, so maybe there's room for improvement in the skaters' use of that element). I think having a leveled step sequence (where there's incentive to show different kinds of turns and steps, rotate in different directions, really show edges etc.) is good because under 6.0 there were so many step sequence that might have been fast and entertaining but literally did not turn at all in one direction or the other, didn't have any variety of steps, didn't demonstrate much in terms of edges, etc.

  2. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    In the mountains, where hippies and hillbillies collide!
    Posts
    6,658
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    On a completely selfish level, I hope something is done about dance. I haven't seen more than about a dozen fds or sds, respectively, this quadrennial because I'm so unbelievably bored....which is really sad since I was more a dance fan than anything pre-CoP. I realize it can't go back to what it was, but oh mylanta it can't stay how it is :snooze:

  3. #43

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,467
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    21424
    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    The choreographic sequence would be a good place to do one of those (though admittedly I don't specifically remember much about the choreo sequences most skaters have been doing, so maybe there's room for improvement in the skaters' use of that element). I think having a leveled step sequence (where there's incentive to show different kinds of turns and steps, rotate in different directions, really show edges etc.) is good because under 6.0 there were so many step sequence that might have been fast and entertaining but literally did not turn at all in one direction or the other, didn't have any variety of steps, didn't demonstrate much in terms of edges, etc.
    In the short program, the emphasis could be on gaining levels -- or at senior level there could even be a requirement to achieve at least "variety" of steps and turns and rotations in both directions, which would be equivalent to level 2. Maybe no need for the other features. Or maybe SP would be the only place to get extra points for doing "complexity" of steps and all four features in the same sequence.

    Using the tech program vs. free program distinction, all sequences in the freeskate could be unleveled "choreo" sequences rewarded only in GOE -- and however they affect the PCS positively or negatively.

    But then there needs to be some way built in to reward skaters who do difficult unique step sequences in the free program and do them very well. The point difference between 0 and +3 GOE is not sufficient to represent difference between your favorite level 4 step sequence and your least favorite level 2 sequence that was trying to be level 4 but didn't get credit for all the features.

    And as the choreo sequence rules stand now, there's even less means to distinguish between the very best level 4 sequences and the very best 6.0 era sequences that relied on quick feet and charisma with few edges and fewer turns.

    Same for other kinds of sequences, e.g., mostly spirals/field moves, or low-rev jumps, if those are options. Make it more valuable to do something not so difficult with good edges and quickness and musicality and choreographic coherence than just to throw in a bunch of difficulty without the other qualities. But make it worth most of all to do a difficult sequence AND all the other positive qualities.

  4. #44
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    110
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    When Zayak is applied deduct the one that harm score the least rather than the latest attempt.

  5. #45
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,469
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    IMO Since skaters are given points for choreography they should have to do it themselves. If they are not good at that, it is no different than not being good at a particular jump, etc. Choreographing would just be another skill for which they would be judged on their ability to do it. If they are still allowed to hire choreographers, then the name of the choreographer should not be made public so as not to perhaps affect judging. It is hardly fair that some skaters have the resources to hire the name and best choreographers, while others aren't.

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,226
    vCash
    5550
    Rep Power
    17487
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    IMO Since skaters are given points for choreography they should have to do it themselves. If they are not good at that, it is no different than not being good at a particular jump, etc. Choreographing would just be another skill for which they would be judged on their ability to do it. If they are still allowed to hire choreographers, then the name of the choreographer should not be made public so as not to perhaps affect judging. It is hardly fair that some skaters have the resources to hire the name and best choreographers, while others aren't.
    Should the names of the coaches who taught them technique not be made public either?

    I've heard the argument before that choreography is the coach's/choreographer's mark and it annoys me every time. The skaters are only judged on the movements they execute, where on the ice and in the span of the program they execute, the ice coverage they demonstrate (being the ones actually skating on the ice), etc. Regardless of where the skater "learned" those things, they are part of the judging criteria just as jumps and spins are (which the skater also had to learn to do from somewhere or someone, who might have taught them good or bad technique).

  7. #47
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    813
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    My 2 cents- no points for trying and falling on a quad.
    Bring back the spiral! One of the beautiful movements (or can be) - I so miss that.
    Downgrade any bielman spin that isn't fully stretched and FAST.

  8. #48
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    2,775
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I would like the SP kept exactly as it is and in the free program simply have a single mark from 0-10 for each of the following for TES: Jumps, Spins, Footwork, MITF all weighted appropriately. There would obviously be some guidelines for jumps and spins (Zayak rule for example). The judges could take in the program at the end decide an overall mark for the quantity and quality of elements. This way, we keep the intense scrutiny in the short program, but take a step back in the free programs which allows skaters a little more breathing room to be creative and play to their strengths.

  9. #49
    Argle-Bargle-ist
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Age
    50
    Posts
    8,564
    vCash
    875
    Rep Power
    76283
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamSkates View Post
    My 2 cents- no points for trying and falling on a quad.
    I agree. Eliminate the quad.
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  10. #50

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34819
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedySucks View Post
    They desperately need to do something to improve the speed and musicality of footwork sequences. Current footwork sequences take up too much time and they often do not express the music at all. I miss footwork sequences that fly down the ice and really get the crowd involved in the program.
    That is a skater/coach issue. Tell them to make their step sequences more interesting and musical.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  11. #51

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,852
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    But with the system in place, they don't have to make them interesting and musical. They need to do what it takes to get a level 4 as of now, the only way skaters have been able to do that is to make these step sequences a minute or more long. It'd be nice if they could, but what's the real incentive if a really great footwork sequence that hits the beats doesn't necessarily score higher than one that hits all of the marks?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #52
    Left in the Kiss-n-Cry
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    near St Louis
    Posts
    16,066
    vCash
    24000
    Rep Power
    37422
    Backtracking to the topic about the SP once again being more of the "technical" program, I feel like there should be a greater penalty for any missed element (say combo jump not completed in singles, or a lift which has to be aborted in pairs or dance).

    In the free program, I would like them to penalize or prohibit skaters from repeating the same style jumps more than 3 times at the senior level. I.e. A lady could do a 3T/3T and a 2T on one other combo, but no other toe loop jumps. Or someone like Fernandez or Aaron could not put 4 salchows (be them quads or triples) in the free program, regardless if two are done in a combination or sequence.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  13. #53
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    A few responses to questions/comments:

    Ziggy: Yes, there are a couple of duplications within the PCS I didn't catch; you can probably remove timing from the choreography. However, I see no problem with the skater's technical performance impacting this set of marks through the "continuity" and "cleanliness" components. Mistakes/stumbles were always penalized in the Presentation mark, as they should be- they impact the overall performance, which this set of marks is intended to do. Additionally, stumbles on non-elements or breaks/pauses aren't assessed anywhere in the TES.

    The reality is the current PCS does not look at the overall impression of a program, and the majority of skating fans feel that the part of the score that grades the level of performance should take these things into consideration, regardless of your personal opinion or how the two marks should ideally function. It's clear that the judges don't always follow the system as they should.

    I am all for 2 panels, as well. Any additional PCS you'd like to add if more eyes/more time could be given?

    Antmanb: My definition of "different families" of jumps was intended to mean edge vs. toe; I went back and forth between prescribing the solo jump or simply requiring one edge and toe, and ended with the latter.

    Kwanfan: I disagree that the spiral sequence requires a certain body type; under this system, the only requirement would be 3 positions with the leg held above horizontal, something any elite skater should be able to achieve. The focus of the spiral is on the depth of edge, coverage, speed/glide, etc. An aesthetic position is certainly part of the score, but a Bobekian spiral is not the standard. I think I want to take back my comment about the layback; in reality, I just think Butyrskaya should be able to show off her camel spin as much as Cohen her layback.

    Speedysucks: I agree regarding footwork; I drafted guidelines form GOE, but don't think I'll post them. But, my version of the COP would have "ability to complete sequence in a defined circular, straight, or serpentine pattern" and "ability to complete sequence in one direction with little to no break in movement" to minimize the back and forth/weaving/1-minute steps we see.

  14. #54

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    497
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    7 triples used to be the gold standard. Now, skaters can substitute a double axel-2-2 combo and get more points than a triple lutz! Also, I am tired of seeing the 3loop instead of the flip or lutz in the short program. This is a regression, IMO. Not sure how to fix these things but these quirks of the IJS are not moving the sport forward for the ladies.

  15. #55

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,852
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    Yeah, but aren't Triple Loops being put in SPs that have 3/3s? I don't know if that's regression. Also, I know the Triple Flip is technically more difficult than a Triple Loop in the books, but the Triple Loop isn't that far behind in base value. I do know that I had wished Maria Butyrskaya kept the Loop as her solo jump rather than the Flip just based on aesthetics.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  16. #56
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,200
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43906
    Quote Originally Posted by JJS5056 View Post
    Kwanfan: I disagree that the spiral sequence requires a certain body type; under this system, the only requirement would be 3 positions with the leg held above horizontal, something any elite skater should be able to achieve. The focus of the spiral is on the depth of edge, coverage, speed/glide, etc. An aesthetic position is certainly part of the score, but a Bobekian spiral is not the standard. I think I want to take back my comment about the layback; in reality, I just think Butyrskaya should be able to show off her camel spin as much as Cohen her layback.
    A spiral has to be at least hip level to be considered a spiral. That requires specific back, hip (for turnout), and leg flexibility. Most male skaters do not have it, and I don't see why female skaters should have to. If either gender wishes to do a layback spin or a spiral step sequence as their spin or (one of their) step sequences, they should be able to.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #57

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34819
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    A spiral has to be at least hip level to be considered a spiral. That requires specific back, hip (for turnout), and leg flexibility. Most male skaters do not have it, and I don't see why female skaters should have to. If either gender wishes to do a layback spin or a spiral step sequence as their spin or (one of their) step sequences, they should be able to.
    Hmmm if a skater can do a camel spin, which most competitive skaters can do, they should be able to do a spiral. It doesn't have to be Sasha Cohen or Nicole Bobek level but they can achieve the basic position.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #58
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,200
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43906
    Few skaters do camels spins like John Curry in the arabesque position. Few use turnout, and many are done parallel to the ice, without a significant bend in the back. It's a different skill and physical challenge to spin in a 90-degree position and to hold and glide for a prolonged period of time in arabesque position. (The other spiral positions require more flexibility.) I don't see why Ladies should have to show this skill and Men do not. Either both should be required to do a spiral, or neither should be required to do a spiral.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  19. #59

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    9,146
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34134
    The worst was when judges suddenly expected male pairs skaters to be uber flexible. I never care to see Stanislav Morozov do that ugly skate to head on the side spiral (or whatever the official name of it is).

  20. #60
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,200
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43906
    That's pretty true of most male Pairs skaters. Male and female Pairs skaters rarely get the same body positions in their spin positions: forget about spirals.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •