View Poll Results: Should US World and Olympic Team Placements Be Made After 4CC?

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  • Yes

    13 28.26%
  • No

    33 71.74%
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  1. #1

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    Should US World and Olympic Team Placements Be Made After 4CC?

    Should US World and Olympic Team placements be made after 4CC since the current years Nationals alone does not really matter?

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    Seriously, even Russia waits until after Euros.

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    Will 4CCs be moved further from the Olympics?

    Maybe it could be justified for Worlds- but requiring Olympic skaters to go to 4CCs seriously cuts into the training time and is just incredibly harsh on the body adjusting to the times. Looking at New York to Taipei- it's an 19 hour trip. Colorado Springs to Taipei is a 23 hour trip!!! No one should have to do that a week before the Olympics.

    And while there are likely some European skaters who have brutal flights to Euros and jet lag to deal with: everyone there at least represents a country on the continent already. Moscow to Budapest is 3 hours, London to Budapest 8 hours.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 01-16-2014 at 07:25 PM.

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    4CC is in Taipei two weeks after Nationals and ends 12 days before the start of the Olympics.
    JET LAG!! TOTAL EXHAUSTION!! NO WAY!!

    USFS would be sending limp dishrags to the Olympics to do a team event (up first), which would take them right out of any possible medal.

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    4CC could be earlier as could Nationals, and not very skater has to go. They could just see how the skaters that go to 4CC do before selecting the team.

    In fact, that would be better for 4CC because people would pay attention to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Should US World and Olympic Team placements be made after 4CC since the current years Nationals alone does not really matter?
    1. Euros is a bit earlier than 4CCs and competitors are coming from nearby areas in close time zones. Traveling to 4CCs and simply not knowing where you stand until the end of January, is terrible for an athlete mentally. I wouldn't even send the same people to 4CCs and the Olympics, so in my opinion it's best to know that information early.

    2. Euros might be the more significant competition for smaller European countries, so they may value those results more than nationals. Many countries, I know not all, that participate in 4CCs have very strong national showings. I can't imagine anything being more of a hot pot than Japanese nationals. There is no need for Japan or the US to wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    4CC could be earlier
    Could it? Do you think the ISU will move 4CCs just so the US team can be named after it? Why would the ISU change their calendar for the United States?

    The ISU schedules the events, and they are well aware how close it is to the Olympics. It is clear that it is viewed as a second rate championship and they don't care who attends it. Scheduling it as they did, they had to expect that almost no Olympians who were not based in Asia (or had available training in Asia) would attend.

    as could Nationals
    I wonder about this. Other than the timing being traditional (and it was earlier this year than I think it usually is, as it usually falls on or near my birthday which is late in the month, so I think they DID move it earlier this year on purpose) I think NBC plays a large part in the scheduling. They have to wait for the college bowl games to be over to get the prime TV time they do. Because while we think the TV schedule sucks, they did have 2 multi-hour blocks on a Saturday and a multi-hour block on a Sunday.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 01-16-2014 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    4CC could be earlier as could Nationals
    When was the last time 4CCs was earlier than US Nationals?

    When was the last time they held US Nationals before the end of the holiday season?

    4CCs is in a great spot strategically for non Olympic years. Competitors going to Worlds get the extra exposure, while still having enough time to recuperate between competitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Could it? Do you think the ISU will move 4CCs just so the US team can be named after it?
    I'm certain the ISU would do want ever would get people to watch it since it is their championship (ie their broadcast rights).

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    4CC is one week after Euros, there is hardly any difference there.

    And yes it should. So that you can see how skaters are scored by an international judging panel.

    For example, IIRC Kostner was the only lady in the Euros Ladies SP who had a Lv4 step sequence. And how many of those there were at US Nationals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    4CC is one week after Euros, there is hardly any difference there.
    Euros ends on January 19th. 4CCs ends January 26th.
    The pairs short starts February 6th. I think a week makes a difference. It's the difference between 10 days before your event and 17! Now, a week doesn't make a difference if it is 30 days or 37, but 10 days? That's nothing.

    Especially with the extreme flight times to get from some of the training locations to Asia? Some of the flights I looked up from Colorado Springs to Taipei took 3 days to complete all the legs of the flight- where will the skater train from the time 4CCs end to the time they need to get to Sochi? Just getting to 4CCs and then getting back (not sure if they could even do this with only 10 days to go until the next event) the travel eats into a lot of the training time, not even dealing with the back and forth of various time zones?

    Though some of the Euros skaters aren't training in Europe- most are. Getting too and from Euros and then to the Olympics isn't nearly what getting to and from North America/Australia/(Anyone from South America?) is.

    Additionally- 4CCs is not a prestigious medal. Many Olympians are going to Euros because it is a notch in their belt only slightly lower than Worlds. I hope skaters are proud of their 4CCs medals, but I have never seen someone proclaimed "4CCs Champion" in the same way a Euro champ is.


    How many countries are waiting until after Euros to name their team? I think Russia is only doing it because they want to name Plushenko but have no justification for it.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 01-16-2014 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    4CC is one week after Euros, there is hardly any difference there.
    Just like the Grand Prix, a week does matter. Having grand prix assignments that have three weeks apart, versus one or two, makes all the difference in the world to the improvement of a program. I don't see how an additional week could be anything but beneficial, especially this close.

    Also, I'm not saying every country should wait for Euros either. I simply do not believe it's in the best interest of US skaters heading to the Olympics to wait that long for a decision. Every country is different. Not all countries skaters have the same access to international competition. I don't think that's the case for the US.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    . Not all countries skaters have the same access to international competition.
    I'm not clear which point you are making but with all the Senior Bs in Europe- I think small Euro countries actually have much better access to international competition than the US does. Though in small federations the skaters tend to fund themselves, so it is just money on whether or not they can actually go to them.


    For example, IIRC Kostner was the only lady in the Euros Ladies SP who had a Lv4 step sequence. And how many of those there were at US Nationals?
    Ziggy- I know it was rhetorical but the answer is probably lower than you'd think. In the free, only 3 skaters got L4 steps: Mariah, Leah, and Mirai. Six skaters managed it in the short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I'm not clear which point you are making but with all the Senior Bs in Europe- I think small Euro countries actually have much better access to international competition than the US does. Though in small federations the skaters tend to fund themselves, so it is just money on whether or not they can actually go to them.
    I was thinking outside of the Senior B. Honestly I don't know how those competitions are viewed from the perspective of smaller European countries. I've always thought Euros was considered bigger.
    The only point I was trying to make is that some countries might want to wait for a stronger more competitive pool, before they made final decisions, but with the US having a good number of skaters in the grand prix, I don't see the point.

  15. #15
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    I think if anything a skateoff at 4CCs between Wagner, Nagasu, and Edmunds might have been appropriate this year. Despite her "body of work" if Wagner couldnt stand up to the pressure twice (and we know the only way international judges would place her below both Nagasu and Edmunds is if she bombed) she probably wouldnt deserve the Olympics. Nagasu and Edmunds are self explanatory.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Seriously, even Russia waits until after Euros.
    If the ISU wants 4CC to gain the respect that the European Championships have...then yes. I wonder about the future of 4CC sometimes...it's like the bastard child of the skating world or something...

    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    I think if anything a skateoff at 4CCs between Wagner, Nagasu, and Edmunds might have been appropriate this year. Despite her "body of work" if Wagner couldnt stand up to the pressure twice (and we know the only way international judges would place her below both Nagasu and Edmunds is if she bombed) she probably wouldnt deserve the Olympics. Nagasu and Edmunds are self explanatory.
    Why did you put body of work in quotation marks?

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    I say if you are a Russian, (where your skaters have a minimal travel requirement to get to Euros) it is your business.

    If like me you happen to be an American then a fairly judged Natls is all we have ever needed to pick our Olympic team.

    As an American I shudder at Pat S tPiseev's directive to silence our senior elite skaters for talking about their feelings.

    Gracie, Polina and Mirai skated their way onto the Olympic team at Natls.

    Ashley should have been a Russian where such a favorable placements would have been the norm.

    Forget Mirai leaving to skate for Japan, it is Ashley who should go skate somewhere else. Her name sounds German so maybe they would be happy to make her something she is not in USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Euros ends on January 19th. 4CCs ends January 26th.
    The pairs short starts February 6th. I think a week makes a difference. It's the difference between 10 days before your event and 17! Now, a week doesn't make a difference if it is 30 days or 37, but 10 days? That's nothing.
    I get your point. I think that in the Olympic season, they should move Euros to 6-12 January and move Four Continents to 13-19 January (although that would require cooperation from USFS and Skate Canada in scheduling their Nationals earlier and they would probably refuse...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I get your point. I think that in the Olympic season, they should move Euros to 6-12 January and move Four Continents to 13-19 January (although that would require cooperation from USFS and Skate Canada in scheduling their Nationals earlier and they would probably refuse...).
    I really wonder if it is less about USFS and more about NBC... Both USFS and the ISU are in their pockets. They are apparently why the team event is first and not last, at least from rumors. December isn't good for NBC- too much football- so Nationals wouldn't be then. I guess skaters only got a week to 4CCs this year, so maybe they could just do nationals the first week of January; but if it is an Olympic trial, I don't think they want skaters rushed to competition they aren't prepared for.

  20. #20
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    Actually I think sometime in the first 2 weeks of December could work for Nationals, if all parties were willing to move the competitions earlier. They already do push Nationals up by 3 weeks to a month during Olympic years, so I don't know that there's anything sacred about the timing of Nationals. As for appeasing NBC, early January actually has a ton of football and Nationals was directly conflicting with NFL playoff games this year. There might be more college football games in early January in the future with the college football playoffs too. The timing of 4CC in Olympic years is tricky for everyone, not just the US/Canada. The distances are long from Australia too, and from Asia when the event is held in North America. A lot of these countries don't have a B-team to send to 4CCs so they're sending their Olympic team and having to cope with the travel just before the Games. Seems like it would be better for all parties including the ISU if they did look into moving it to early January in Olympic years. Maybe they'd get better attendance from the top skaters, assuming the individual countries were on board with changing the timing of national events.

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