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  1. #81

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    I'm all for high concepts and artistic integrity. Hell, I think we need more esoteric themes. However, I guess I didn't see B/S's dance being any of that and the theme was quite simple and easily understood. In fact, I found it so easy to understand and heavy-handed to the point of the dance being patronizing and quite low-brow. I mean I think Virtue/Moir's dance this year is the one people are still trying to figure out (I actually love it, myself even if it's not "voidy" like B/S's dance). That's just my opinion, though.
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  2. #82
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    Is it really true BS will revive last year's FD? Did this news come directly from Zhulin or BS themselves? I am quite skeptical - it does not seem believable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rustyskater View Post
    Is it really true BS will revive last year's FD? Did this news come directly from Zhulin or BS themselves? I am quite skeptical - it does not seem believable.
    I couldnt believe it either - but you can read it for yourself - it's in the Russia with Love thread in GSD.

    Very little Zhulin has done this season makes any sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    G/P lost to P/I because of the quality of P/I's skating and dancing in Ottawa. Watching those two teams on the ice side-by-side in practice it was no question which team was better.

    I know people get into the program themes, but at the end of the day, if we're going to say this an Olympic sport and not theater, placements are supposed to be about who danced and skated better. It's not supposed to be about the theme of the program.
    Placements are supposed to be about everything put together and the quality of choreography and how the movement relates to the music should get reflected in PE, CH and IN marks.

    I wouldn't have had a problem if G/P were rewarded in those areas and lost overall because of other things. But they weren't.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Placements are supposed to be about everything put together and the quality of choreography and how the movement relates to the music should get reflected in PE, CH and IN marks.

    I wouldn't have had a problem if G/P were rewarded in those areas and lost overall because of other things. But they weren't.
    I'm not biased since I haven't even watched P&I's skate, but all I have seen people say is that P&I program was bland and similar to their old stuff. The program could have still been well built to the music, well interpreted and performed even to bland music. I haven't really seen anyone get into the specifics of the program's choreography other than the theme being boring.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Placements are supposed to be about everything put together and the quality of choreography and how the movement relates to the music should get reflected in PE, CH and IN marks.

    I wouldn't have had a problem if G/P were rewarded in those areas and lost overall because of other things. But they weren't.
    And P/I have a more difficult, complex program that in the eyes of many was a gorgeous work of pure skating and dancing that was incredibly well performed and interpreted.

    I think if you'd watched these two teams skate live side-by-side, you'd understand why P/I so handily beat G/P.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I'm not biased since I haven't even watched P&I's skate, but all I have seen people say is that P&I program was bland and similar to their old stuff. The program could have still been well built to the music, well interpreted and performed even to bland music. I haven't really seen anyone get into the specifics of the program's choreography other than the theme being boring.
    It relies quite extensively on close closed hold, change of hold and change of direction, interdependent skating, and ice coverage -- much moreso than the more open program from G/P -- and includes some beautiful highlight lifts and positions. It's a demonstration of difficulty that's also sort of built into the narrative of P/I's program (hold used to relay the concept of the romance even into the choreographic lift, like G/P using more theatrical and dramatic gestures to convey their storyline). Opinions on the entertainment value of either are subjective, but G/P's program, while cleverly constructed to make virtues of their issues as a skating team, choreographically relies on a lot of movements used in previous programs from the team, made splashier with better music and costuming and a clearer narrative. P/I's program works through traditional genres of partner dance with the tango and waltz, but for its own part uses music new to ice dance and comes across to my view as a cohesive whole even with the frequent shifts in genre.

    The ISU rulebook requirements for the best marks in PE, CH, and IN (which neither team, of course, is racking up at this point in time) actually read:

    PE:
    *move as one, superb matching
    *elegant/sophisticated style
    *refined line of body and limbs
    *precise execution of body movements
    *both spellbinding
    *projection exceptional (to audience or in themselves if music requires)

    CH:
    *wide range of steps, moves, and required elements superbly motivated by music
    *ingenious use of music, space, symmetry
    *memorable highlights distributed evenly
    *change of pace/tempo incorporated seamlessly
    *total utilization of personal and public space

    IN:
    *skaters/music/nuances as one
    *motivation from "heart"
    *wide range of inspired movements, gestures
    *skaters stay "in character" for the whole program
    *exceptional ability to relate as one and to reflect music, theme
    *superb expression of the music's style and character
    *timing: 100% correct

    I'm not assigning favor to either team in these categories, but I do think it's a useful resource to have each's specific requirements listed off. As a caveat, I'm working off 1677 since it's at the ready, so forgive me if any of the guidelines have changed in the more recent handbook.
    Last edited by lavenderblue; 01-19-2014 at 07:00 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    And P/I have a more difficult, complex program that in the eyes of many was a gorgeous work of pure skating and dancing that was incredibly well performed and interpreted.

    I think if you'd watched these two teams skate live side-by-side, you'd understand why P/I so handily beat G/P.
    I just went and watched both SD & FD of GP and PI back to back (yay FSU!). Paul & Islam are absolutely stunning. I'm just amazed because after all the troubles they've had I'd written them off. Their skating is phenomenal and I can't argue that they should have not beaten G&P.

    Right now, though, I'd rather watch G&P. There's something about them that has captivated me since they got together.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    And P/I have a more difficult, complex program that in the eyes of many was a gorgeous work of pure skating and dancing that was incredibly well performed and interpreted.

    I think if you'd watched these two teams skate live side-by-side, you'd understand why P/I so handily beat G/P.
    Again, I don't have a problem with the final result. I have a problem with the judges essentially giving one mark for 'general impression' and not rewarding the execution of each element and each PCS criteria on its own merit, as they are supposed to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Again, I don't have a problem with the final result. I have a problem with the judges essentially giving one mark for 'general impression' and not rewarding the execution of each element and each PCS criteria on its own merit, as they are supposed to.
    But that is exactly what happened in Ottawa. Element for element, P/I out executed G/P. And, yes, the PCS was fairly scored as well as it's supposed to be. The judges did not hand out one mark for general impression. P/I genuinely outperformed G/P in all areas.

    I know you preferred G/P's program, but G/P and P/I were fairly scored per the criteria in the CoP.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavenderblue View Post
    It relies quite extensively on close closed hold, change of hold and change of direction, interdependent skating, and ice coverage -- much moreso than the more open program from G/P -- and includes some beautiful highlight lifts and positions. It's a demonstration of difficulty that's also sort of built into the narrative of P/I's program (hold used to relay the concept of the romance even into the choreographic lift, like G/P using more theatrical and dramatic gestures to convey their storyline). Opinions on the entertainment value of either are subjective, but G/P's program, while cleverly constructed to make virtues of their issues as a skating team, choreographically relies on a lot of movements used in previous programs from the team, made splashier with better music and costuming and a clearer narrative. P/I's program works through traditional genres of partner dance with the tango and waltz, but for its own part uses music new to ice dance and comes across to my view as a cohesive whole even with the frequent shifts in genre.

    The ISU rulebook requirements for the best marks in PE, CH, and IN (which neither team, of course, is racking up at this point in time) actually read:
    Thank you, lavenderblue. This really is useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    But that is exactly what happened in Ottawa. Element for element, P/I out executed G/P. And, yes, the PCS was fairly scored as well as it's supposed to be. The judges did not hand out one mark for general impression. P/I genuinely outperformed G/P in all areas.

    I know you preferred G/P's program, but G/P and P/I were fairly scored per the criteria in the CoP.
    This. Even though I like G/P's FD a lot too.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    That's what I was speaking of. Regardless to what people said on the boards or opinions of commentators, the judges were giving them very good PCS scores for performance, choreography, interpretation/timing...aka the artistic things.
    The main problem was tech but they are still outside the new mainstream of creativity and artistry in ice dance. You can be different but try to work within what's working in winning for VM and DW.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    But that is exactly what happened in Ottawa. Element for element, P/I out executed G/P. And, yes, the PCS was fairly scored as well as it's supposed to be. The judges did not hand out one mark for general impression. P/I genuinely outperformed G/P in all areas.

    I know you preferred G/P's program, but G/P and P/I were fairly scored per the criteria in the CoP.
    Listen G/P FD was my fave of the season(and I'm not even a fan of theirs) just because it's unique and something different and maybe cause I'm a Hitchcock fan to but I agree with you gerbil. I don't for one second think that they should've beaten P/I in any catergory. They are the better team, by quite a bit, end of story.

    G/P still need some work (especially G). Problem with a program like that is it's fabulous out of the gate and captures your attention. After a few performances of it, it can start to wear thin and you look closer at the actual skating(actually that what you should be doing anyways), and suddenly the whole 'theme' doesn't matter so much, nor should it. In certain cases if you are neck and neck with someone I suppose it can be a deciding factor. In this case I just don't see anywhere that G/P deserved better than what they got.

  14. #94
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    How did this bloody thread transform from Zhulin's B/S madness to discussing Canadian nationals? lol gotta love the Trash Can

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    How did this bloody thread transform from Zhulin's B/S madness to discussing Canadian nationals? lol gotta love the Trash Can
    Must be those VM ubers causing trouble again.

    PI have wonderful skating skills and they threw down 2 impeccable programs.

  16. #96

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    I'm just shocked that COP is being used against Ziggy for a change. It's ok Ziggy, it hurts the first time, .
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    http://greatcouples.tumblr.com/image/73310298358

    RIP bird program. We will never forget.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by bronwynsings View Post
    http://greatcouples.tumblr.com/image/73310298358

    RIP bird program. We will never forget.
    Even when we would like to.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronwynsings View Post
    http://greatcouples.tumblr.com/image/73310298358

    RIP bird program. We will never forget.
    Caption: "Dmitri Soloviev expresses his feelings about the team's time with Alexander Zhulin."
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Caption: "Dmitri Soloviev expresses his feelings about the team's time with Alexander Zhulin."

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