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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sequins View Post
    On the bright side 95% of people watching the Olympics have never seen or don't remember this FD anyways.
    The judges will though. And you bet that some of them will chatter about a 'recycled program' and will mark it down for that, even if not consciously.

    But as you said, Zhulin doesn't have much choice. The Birds FD didn't bring the desired results and it's not like there is enough time to conjure a new program.

    The transformation Zhulin did for B/S last season was great. But he totally messed up their Olympic season. If I was them, I would jump ship.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The judges will though. And you bet that some of them will chatter about a 'recycled program' and will mark it down for that, even if not consciously.

    But as you said, Zhulin doesn't have much choice. The Birds FD didn't bring the desired results and it's not like there is enough time to conjure a new program.

    The transformation Zhulin did for B/S last season was great. But he totally messed up their Olympic season. If I was them, I would jump ship.
    Well, [1] - I think Birds was starting to come together at GPF. Im not sure they will score any higher using an old FD than they would have with 6-8 weeks additional practice on Birds [counting from GPF]. As Cherub said - they need to practice their elements to up the tech score, PCS was already pretty good. IMO this time could have been better spent on the elements and trying to do them with more flair and style to get higher GOP, than in having to re-learn an old FD.

    and [2] he did have a 3rd option - as Casken keeps pointing out - he could have brought back the original music. "Olympic" or not, at least it fit the choreography.

    I would not be happy with my coach either if I were them, but do you know of anyone else in Russia who would be better? I dont know Russian coaches all that well, but of those I know Zhulin is the best, esp for developing tech. I like Z/S for their choreography, but Im not sure how good they are at improving the skating. They did a great job with Rubleva/Shafer, but it took them 3 years to make the change happen and by that time they were way out of favor with the Fed.

    Im not sure how easy or difficult it would be for them to go abroad. The Fed would have to pay.

  3. #43
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    I think it is too late to change programs and a stupid choice as bad as their other program was. Had they stuck with the crappy birds program but skated it well I am sure they would have been given the Olympic bronze due to the Olympics being in Russia. Now going to a new program it probably wont be ready and they will struggle so much with it, the judges will have no choice but to do the right thing and give the bronze to one of Weaver & Poje or Pechalat & Bourzat. As Bobrova & Soloviev are about my least favorite Russian ice dance team ever, and I would far rather one of those other two teams get the bronze anyway, I must admit I am happy with this foolish decision.

  4. #44
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    I think it is too late to change programs and a stupid choice as bad as their other program was. Had they stuck with the crappy birds program.
    The "crappy bird's program" was well received when they debuted it at the Russian test skates. B&S and Zhulin both said so in interviews shortly after the event. That's why I'm shocked to hear that Tarasova was against it.

    You can even hear the smaller audience at the test skates respond to it with far more enthusiasm than the crowd did for the revised version at Russian Nationals.

    It's just what the program was butchered into that was "stupid". The original version, polished up, would have been great. It moved with nice continuous flow, the choreography went to the music, and they told the story without being over the top.

    Ugh. It just makes me so

  5. #45
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    This thread made me realize it's been 8 years since Navka won her OGM. The hell?

    It's funny to think back to Zhulin's choreography, we had gorgeous programs like Lang/Tchernyshev's Parisienne Walkways, Navka/Kostomarov's "Aint No Sunshine" OD.. Personally I think the first red flag was hearing the dogs barking, don't act like you weren't tempted to look outside to see if it was yours when you first heard it! I think a lot for B/S in Sochi depends on the SD, if they position themselves well after the SD then the old program might not be as big an issue since they will be skating at home. Seeing how beautiful I/K's FD is looking and how sharp they were in the SD in Euros though, I'm thinking I/K might have that political support now when they start splitting hairs. The bronze is a dead heat. I/K's line and posture especially just have it all over B/S now, they're great competitors though this really will all just depend on the skating.

  6. #46
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    The original versions of both the SD and FD were much better.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karpenko View Post
    This thread made me realize it's been 8 years since Navka won her OGM. The hell?

    It's funny to think back to Zhulin's choreography, we had gorgeous programs like Lang/Tchernyshev's Parisienne Walkways, Navka/Kostomarov's "Aint No Sunshine" OD.. Personally I think the first red flag was hearing the dogs barking, don't act like you weren't tempted to look outside to see if it was yours when you first heard it! I think a lot for B/S in Sochi depends on the SD, if they position themselves well after the SD then the old program might not be as big an issue since they will be skating at home. Seeing how beautiful I/K's FD is looking and how sharp they were in the SD in Euros though, I'm thinking I/K might have that political support now when they start splitting hairs. The bronze is a dead heat. I/K's line and posture especially just have it all over B/S now, they're great competitors though this really will all just depend on the skating.
    I&K didnt even make the Grand Prix final and couldnt even win the super weak European event after the top 2 teams WD. While they could win the bronze I wouldnt put them as equal favorites for it right now or anything. W&P, P&B, and B&S all have a better shot at it IMO.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I&K didnt even make the Grand Prix final and couldnt even win the super weak European event after the top 2 teams WD. While they could win the bronze I wouldnt put them as equal favorites for it right now or anything. W&P, P&B, and B&S all have a better shot at it IMO.
    Only 6 teams get to go to the GPF & they were beaten last night by a couple who did go.
    The NHK Trophy result was wrong (IMO), I think they were better than the Shibs.
    I agree that W/P, P/B & B/S have a better shot at the Bronze in Sochi but we are forgetting just how young I/K are.
    Those three couples have been in the senior ranks longer than them. D/W & V/M are exceptions in the rise of Ice Dance.
    I/K fans should not panic. If B/S continue after Sochi I think I/K would be the number 1's in Russia.

  9. #49

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    It looks like Zhulin only lost half his mind at most-I&K failing to win Euros leaves B&S at definitely Russia #1, I think. As to recycling the Madness program, perhaps the judges will be happy to see it back so they won't have to see Birds? I hope so.

  10. #50

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    Are Casken and I the only ones around here who dont believe the Euros result was all bad news for I/K? I posted this in the Euros dance thread -


    I dont see this as all negative for I/K - considering they fell on an element and got a level 2 step sequence [twice! - so Ziggy I dont think it was the fall] they still managed to break 100 in the FD. Imagine what they would have scored w/o those mistakes!

    IMO they are now the favorites for OBM - the judges seem to be telling them - skate clean and you will win. Clearly they have a lot of positives in their skating. This certainly doesnt let B/S off the hook. If I were them, I'd be very worried. Not only about Sochi, but about the next quad.


    and Casken agreed. The judges love I/K and they love their FD. They got 102 in TEB and 100-plus here with 2 mistakes [Im counting level 2 steps as a mistake, since they clearly werent aiming for that level]. It's problematical whether they'll skate clean or not, but if they do, from what I can see the judges are going to reward them with a huge score.

    Zhulin must see the signs as well. Going back to last year's FD just reeks of desperation. JUST BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL MUSIC! It's a better plan than resurrecting something from last year.

    And so far no one has said much about the SD [which was also changed]. Does anyone know anything about why that was suddenly scrapped as well. Like I said originally, I thought it had a distinctive look which tended to set them apart from the other SDs.

  11. #51

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    Falling, especially when you have a bit of a reputation for errors, is a bad thing. If you were Russia, whom would you have compete in the Team Event : ?

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Falling, especially when you have a bit of a reputation for errors, is a bad thing. If you were Russia, whom would you have compete in the Team Event : ?
    Sinitsina/Zhigashin ?

    Yes, all mistakes are bad, esp falls on elements, but if you make them and you STILL score over 100 - what does that tell you about how the judges view your skating?

    AFAIR B/S have yet to score 100 in any intl competition.

  13. #53
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    It has already been announced B&S will do the entire TE. They're splitting pairs because V&T only want to do the SP, and probably splitting ladies.

    Tak, I see what you and casken mean about I&K's scores... I hadn't thought about it that way before. It's just so unlikely they actually will skate without mistakes and without a level 2 somewhere. The main thing for them will be getting a top 5 finish in the SD so they can skate in the final group. I doubt anyone will medal from 6th or lower, even if the scores are close.

  14. #54

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    I'm looking at Europeans' scores as like US Nationals, Canadian Nationals & Japanese Nationals scores-heck, if those countries can inflate scores, so can Europeans, no? Score Inflation For All

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    Europeans is a championship with international judges (and not just from Europe). That's completely different than having all judges from the same country judging at an event put on by their federation. I think I read that Canada at least uses Canadian judges who are cleared to judge internationally, while US uses American judges with a mix of national and international credentials, so there might be more inflation there.

  16. #56
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    If you go by scores then C&L are on track to be ahead of B&S after their showing at Euros. And if you go by who has scored over 100 and who has not, then you've got P&B, I&K, and C&L ahead of B&S if all skate clean, leaving B&S no higher than 6th.

    I&K could have big mistakes but then so could B&S. Maybe P&B and C&L will nab the 3-4 spots. But slot WeaPo, who have scored over 100 in the FD in international competition, in there somewhere too and B&S go down to 7th.

    Who knows?
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I think JJ used 'his' because we are talking about Zhulin right now. Everyone knows about U&Z creating some beautiful programs with their classical lines.

    I disagree that he wasn't the dominant member of that team. Unlike some other ice dance couples, U&Z were very equal in their talent and expression. Zhulin wasn't just showcasing his partner. He was passionate, and very involved in the performance. They really were 50-50 like other great ice dance teams. It's a shame that for the 94 Oly FD they picked a style that did not bring out their strengths. Had they selected something similar to what they had in 89-93, they would have won the OGM- but I am digressing. May be he learned from the experience and decided to can the FD that was not working, but I wish he had done it earlier, and not so close to the Olympics.
    On the ice, Usova and Zhulin were equally matched. And I agree with everyone who believes they could have won Olympic gold in 1994 with a different free dance. Even at the time, I couldn't understand why Maya was wearing a little girl's church dress and why this notoriously troubled couple was attempting a "young kids in love" program. I can't imagine either of them coming up with such an idea, so I've always assumed their coach was the one calling the shots.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think it is too late to change programs and a stupid choice as bad as their other program was. Had they stuck with the crappy birds program but skated it well I am sure they would have been given the Olympic bronze due to the Olympics being in Russia. Now going to a new program it probably wont be ready and they will struggle so much with it, the judges will have no choice but to do the right thing and give the bronze to one of Weaver & Poje or Pechalat & Bourzat. As Bobrova & Soloviev are about my least favorite Russian ice dance team ever, and I would far rather one of those other two teams get the bronze anyway, I must admit I am happy with this foolish decision.
    As someone who feels B/S have absolutely atrocious skating skills for a team in the top ten, let alone being considered for an Olympic medal, I'm hardly broken up by this foolish idea. They should have went back to the original music, which works with the program, and cut out some of the OTT choreography. I think they would have a good program, or at least one that would be subjectively good or bad, instead of this universal feeling we all have.

    If I/K fall...again, and B/S can't polish their old FD in time, the judges might be forced to do the right thing and give the Bronze medal to a deserving team.

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    I feel for Zhulin because not only did he lose to the gold to Tarasova's team 20 years ago, now he's got to deal with her meddling with his choreographic vision every year. His choreography should always be trusted. Does he need help with lifts and levels? Sure, but don't mess with the man's concepts and choreo!
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Do Marina, Krylova, Platov, Igor have to tend to Tarasova's every need? It was Zhulin's choice to coach Russians exclusively leading up to Sochi, right?

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