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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Incidentally, one reason I don't think Tonya was the mastermind is that the crime had male written all over it IMO. Women don't commit crimes as often as men, but when they do, they're usually not violent ones.
    Eh, the women's prisons are full of unladylike criminals.

  2. #262
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    Duplicate post, sorry.
    Last edited by heckles; 03-15-2014 at 03:46 PM.

  3. #263
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    Duplicate post, sorry.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Eh, the women's prisons are full of unladylike criminals.
    That may be true, but it mostly just distracts from the main question:

    Of all violent crimes committed, what percent are committed by women?

    Besides, if the FBI never considered Tonya the mastermind (in spite of what Nancy said on NBC--she seems to have misspoken), I don't know why any of us would.

  5. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    That may be true, but it mostly just distracts from the main question:

    Of all violent crimes committed, what percent are committed by women?

    Besides, if the FBI never considered Tonya the mastermind (in spite of what Nancy said on NBC--she seems to have misspoken), I don't know why any of us would.
    The FBI did consider Tonya to be the principle conspirator and presented that evidence to the Portland District Attorney. The District Attorney decided to go for the plea bargin and did not want to prosecute
    Morry Stillwell

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    The FBI did consider Tonya to be the principle conspirator and presented that evidence to the Portland District Attorney. The District Attorney decided to go for the plea bargin and did not want to prosecute
    Can you please corroborate this with some links to articles? None of the newspaper accounts that I've read agree with this assertion. They pretty much all say that the FBI determined that Jeff Gillooly was the mastermind, something that even Jeff himself agrees with. Why would he cover for Tonya, even to this day? That makes no sense. Besides, if they had enough evidence to nail Tonya as the mastermind, why would they not have prosecuted? That also makes no sense. It even disagrees with Nancy's assertion that they didn't really have any hard evidence.

  7. #267
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    Some interesting tidbits I learned this year about Tonya Harding:

    Other skaters usually got out of her way at the rink, on an off the ice.

    She was usually friendly w/ skaters who were NOT a threat.

    The buzz in the ladies' locker room immediately post-whack at '94 Nationals was that Tonya was involved. I think Elaine Zayak said that in her TSL interview

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Of all violent crimes committed, what percent are committed by women?
    but she didnt commit, she may have planned it. if true, she wouldnt be the first female to hire a hitman to do something she couldnt get away with doing herself.
    I feel like I'm in a dream. But it can't be a dream because there are no boy dancers!

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    They pretty much all say that the FBI determined that Jeff Gillooly was the mastermind, something that even Jeff himself agrees with. Why would he cover for Tonya, even to this day?
    Jeff Gillooly probably knew he was a pathetic girly-man, riding the coattails of a ladies figure skater who looked like a stripper working the afternoon shift next the airport. Do you really think he'd admit that he was so whipped by her that the hit was her idea?

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by my little pony View Post
    but she didnt commit, she may have planned it. if true, she wouldnt be the first female to hire a hitman to do something she couldnt get away with doing herself.
    Fair enough--let's ask this question then:

    Of all violent crimes committed, what percent are planned by women?

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Do you really think he'd admit that he was so whipped by her that the hit was her idea?
    Maybe not, but none of the other guys involved fingered Tonya as the mastermind either. And don't you think the FBI would be smart enough to figure out who the actual mastermind was? I have seen nothing in print to indicate that they ever thought it was Tonya. If they had, I can think of absolutely no good reason that they wouldn't have prosecuted her. If you find otherwise, please post a link here.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Maybe not, but none of the other guys involved fingered Tonya as the mastermind either.
    Again, what man is going to admit that he's taking orders from a ladies figure skater?

    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    And don't you think the FBI would be smart enough to figure out who the actual mastermind was?
    They haven't been able to figure out where a certain jet went.

  13. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Can you please corroborate this with some links to articles? None of the newspaper accounts that I've read agree with this assertion. They pretty much all say that the FBI determined that Jeff Gillooly was the mastermind, something that even Jeff himself agrees with. Why would he cover for Tonya, even to this day? That makes no sense. Besides, if they had enough evidence to nail Tonya as the mastermind, why would they not have prosecuted? That also makes no sense. It even disagrees with Nancy's assertion that they didn't really have any hard evidence.
    There are no links available. My knowledge comes from being interviewed by the FBI 3 times after the Detriot incident. During these interviews I was told of the FBI's view and that they had turned the case over to Oregon authorities for prosecution. They felt there was no Federal Crime involved.
    Morry Stillwell

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Again, what man is going to admit that he's taking orders from a ladies figure skater?
    The truth would have come out eventually, as inept as those thugs were. But what reason is there to believe that Tonya was the mastermind in the first place? It makes much more sense that Jeff was the mastermind. He said that he talked her into it, but she was initially skeptical that they could even pull it off. That sounds believable.

    They haven't been able to figure out where a certain jet went.
    Are you talking about the Malaysian jet?

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    There are no links available. My knowledge comes from being interviewed by the FBI 3 times after the Detriot incident. During these interviews I was told of the FBI's view and that they had turned the case over to Oregon authorities for prosecution.
    OK. However, if the FBI really thought that Tonya was the mastermind, why did the newspapers report that the FBI concluded Jeff was the mastermind? That just doesn't make any sense.

    They felt there was no Federal Crime involved.
    But why would prosecutors have gone after Jeff & Co., but not Tonya herself, if she in fact had been the real mastermind? That doesn't add up. Nancy has said repeatedly that the FBI told her that while they believed that Tonya was involved, they didn't have any hard evidence. Of course, Nancy could be mistaken. Nevertheless, it seems obvious that Tonya would have been prosecuted had investigators been able to gather sufficient evidence to convict.

  16. #276
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    Here are a couple more links to old articles that basically confirm the "Jeff was the mastermind" theory:

    http://tinyurl.com/qhajhr8
    http://tinyurl.com/nlr243c

    If Tonya really was the mastermind, then she was a terrible one, not even showing up for half the meetings.

    ETA: Here are two more articles:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2208,7761747
    http://sportsillustrated.asia/vault/...29/1/index.htm
    Last edited by neptune; 03-16-2014 at 03:52 AM.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    But what reason is there to believe that Tonya was the mastermind in the first place? It makes much more sense that Jeff was the mastermind.
    I'm reluctant to call any of these buffoons a "mastermind," but, considering the toxic relationship of Gillooly and Harding, it's possible that the idea occurred mutually. One mentioned the idea to whack Kerrigan only half-jokingly, and eventually a harebrained scheme was born.

  18. #278
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    Here are a couple more links to old articles that basically confirm the "Jeff was the mastermind" theory:
    I think the very detailed EM Swift article, which is great, portrays Tonya and Jeff as co-masterminds. Jeff had more of a directly managerial role over the hitmen - in part because Tonya didn't want to have direct contact with them - but Tonya and Jeff launched the plot together and made all the major decisions together.

    I think we may be getting bogged down in different ideas of what a "mastermind" is. To me, I think the question is about whether you believe Tonya that she was largely ignorant of the plot and not directly involved, or whether you believe that the attack was carried out at her behest and with her full participation.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post

    Of all violent crimes committed, what percent are planned by women?
    i dont know but im not sure why it matters. if the answer is only say 10%, does that mean it cant be true tonya was involved in hatching of this plot? 10% is a lot of violent crimes, even if it is a small percentage.
    I feel like I'm in a dream. But it can't be a dream because there are no boy dancers!

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    I'm reluctant to call any of these buffoons a "mastermind," but, considering the toxic relationship of Gillooly and Harding, it's possible that the idea occurred mutually. One mentioned the idea to whack Kerrigan only half-jokingly, and eventually a harebrained scheme was born.
    Is it possible? Yes. But where's the evidence? If it was there, the FBI seems to have missed it.

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