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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Eh, it doesn't matter now if she knew about the plot, but it speaks volumes about her character that she shows no remorse, compassion or wisdom, two decades later. Any regret that she expresses is for herself, not for the victim and her family.
    she actually seems more angry with nancy than ever, for i guess getting in the way of whatever they hit her with and not accepting that non apology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
    But he wouldn't have any legal right to the money, so he would be relying on Tonya's good will to share with him...and three of his friends.
    Well, he wouldn't have had any legal right to the money either way, so just informing her wouldn't necessarily have sweetened the pot all that much.

    If she had no knowledge of the plot, why would she want to pay off four criminals after the fact for something she didn't even want them to do?
    I think it makes more sense to say that there wasn't a good reason for Gillooly not to have said anything. Why would he have kept quiet? The only good reason I can think of is so that it wouldn't have negatively affected Tonya's skating, but he obviously wasn't that smart.

    It makes no sense! As dumb as those guys were, they would have to be even dumber to commit a serious federal crime with no firm plan/promise of a payoff.
    I think Jeff also wanted to get in Tonya's good graces--to play the "hero," if you will. And that would've have been harder to do if she hadn't known anything about it.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    How? Unless the kids keep skating and in the same area, they just disappear from the rink and that's that.
    Oh, I thought we were talking about more or less high-profile skaters? I mean, if Tonya had placed well at Nationals and then gotten moved to a foster home, I'm sure there would have been a ton of talk.

    She's far from your typical controlling skating mom but unfortunately she's also far from being unique and the worst ever. It's one of the secret shames of skating that there are kids in skating who have it as bad as Tonya did. Not as many as have eating disorders. But 3 that I have personally seen from 1993 to 2007 in only one area of the country that I would put on her level.
    That's sad to hear.

    So think about those numbers. If I personally knew about 3 during a 15 year period in one area, that means the odds are good that at any one point in time somewhere in the country, someone in skating is being treated like she was.
    I can agree with that. But my point isn't that Tonya's mother belongs in the Guinness Book of World Records. It's simply that the abuse was terrible, and that many people have absolutely no way of knowing what it would be like to grow up like that. It just seems that some folks are prone to dismiss Tonya's upbringing as "not really that bad."

    Though I have to say what does being married 6 times have to do with anything? I dated a guy in HS whose dad was married 6 times.
    Are you joking? It shows how unstable Tonya's mother was (didn't Tonya have to move 10+ times or something as a result?), and lends credence to the notion that she needed serious help.

    (It was the 70s and he just couldn't bring himself to sleep with women without marrying them. He was divorcing and remarrying his 7th by the time we graduated.) Now, I wouldn't call him a good role model for relationships but he was a well-to-do psychiatrist (yeah, I know) and a nice guy and not remotely abusive.
    That's pretty sad. I'm not saying that everyone who falls into such a category is abusive, but they definitely have serious relationship problems.

    Also, if Tonya's mother had been married only 1 time or only 3, would that have made her less abusive? I don't think so.
    Probably not. But it's not normal to get married 6 times, showing how "way out there" her mother was.

    The two issues are completely separate.
    I wouldn't go that far. Just because her being married 6 times didn't "cause" her to be abusive, that does not mean the two aren't related. Being married 6 times could well be a symptom of her abusive personality--i.e., no one wanted to live with her, or she just dumped men whenever things got rough. Basically, the "married 6 times" attribute lends a lot of credence to the idea that the woman was/is seriously dysfunctional. And someone who is seriously dysfunctional is much more likely to be abusive.

    It's not the first time she has said that the FBI told the family that Tonya knew about the attack and was involved in the planning.
    True--and that's what I said. Her statement on Access Hollywood was consistent with what she's always claimed. But have you ever heard Nancy state before that the FBI told her that Tonya was the mastermind?

    Also, when USFS stripped Tonya of her title, they said similar things. That the FBI has shown them more evidence than the public knew about and they were satisfied that she was involved from the beginning.
    Right. But how does that suddenly translate into Tonya being the mastermind?

    The story that Tonya had no idea and only learned about the attack when she came back from Nationals makes no sense.
    I agree.
    Last edited by neptune; 03-02-2014 at 05:19 AM.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by my little pony View Post
    she actually seems more angry with nancy than ever, for i guess getting in the way of whatever they hit her with and not accepting that non apology.
    Indeed. It's kind of ironic that while Nancy seems to have forgiven her, Tonya doesn't seem to have "forgiven" Nancy.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Oh, I thought we were talking about more or less high-profile skaters?
    No, these are all nobodies. Maybe that's why nobody cares. But when they are somebodies, people don't want to rock the boat either.

    Are you joking? It shows how unstable Tonya's mother was (didn't Tonya have to move 10+ times or something as a result?), and lends credence to the notion that she needed serious help.
    But it doesn't say anything about whether or not she was abusive towards Tonya. Lots of parents who are bad at relationships are wonderful parents. Tonya's mother isn't one of them and that would be true even if she'd only had 1 husband.

    But how does that suddenly translate into Tonya being the mastermind?
    It depends on what you mean by that term, but I think she and Jeff planned the whole thing together so that would make them co-masterminds in my book with the rest of the gang being their minions.
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    But have you ever heard Nancy state before that the FBI told her that Tonya was the mastermind?
    That's exactly what she said in the NBC documentary, including the word "mastermind".

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    In your sympathy for Tonya, and desire to find her "not/less responsible"; some of your seem to have forgotten that Nancy was the victim in a crime that could have incapacitated her for life.

    Also, it is not unusual for the authorities to release information not known publicly, to the victim and others directly affected.
    It's not usually done when/if investigators believe that they will be able to provide information about the details of the crime.

    I've been there.
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 03-02-2014 at 05:45 PM.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by my little pony View Post
    she actually seems more angry with nancy than ever, for i guess getting in the way of whatever they hit her with
    It's not surprising to be offended when the likes of Nancy Kerrigan has outwitted you.

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    Naw, Tonya outwitted herself. I think that's why she's so pissed off. Nancy is a convenient target but I think she's really mad at herself.
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    Memory is fuzzy but Tonya claims she was divorced from Jeff when the whacking happened. If my memory is correct, didn't she only "separate" from him when he was implicated? And they didn't divorce till later that year.

    I don;t think Jeff's a good guy or anything, but I always got the impression Tonya only dumped him when she realized he was going to jail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    No, these are all nobodies. Maybe that's why nobody cares.
    If so, that's awful.

    But when they are somebodies, people don't want to rock the boat either.
    I do think Rawlinson made a big mistake by letting Tonya's mom go unreported. Unless someone else reported her without the coach's knowledge. I wonder what the chances are that Tonya could have been moved to a foster home?

    But it doesn't say anything about whether or not she was abusive towards Tonya.
    Not directly. As I said, it just makes it easier to believe Tonya's stories about her mother. OTOH, if Mrs. Harding had been married only once and was known as a loving, devoted wife, it would have made believing Tonya's accounts considerably more difficult.

    Lots of parents who are bad at relationships are wonderful parents.
    Well, there is a difference between being "bad at relationships" and "getting married at the drop of a hat." I would suspect that a good percentage of parents who have been married 6 or more times are not wonderful parents. I mean, it says a lot if you're willing to drag your kids through all that turmoil. Divorce is not exactly fun for kids--even one divorce can be traumatic for them. But that's entirely different from saying that they're overtly/physically abusive like Tonya's mother.

    Tonya's mother isn't one of them and that would be true even if she'd only had 1 husband.
    I agree.

    It depends on what you mean by that term, but I think she and Jeff planned the whole thing together
    To me, "mastermind" implies the person who came up with the plan and is at the helm. Jeff came up with the plan, and he was steering the ship. Tonya seems to have eventually warmed up to the idea and helped in the planning. But I don't think she attended all the "planning" meetings. Perhaps the best description of her role would be accomplice.

    so that would make them co-masterminds in my book with the rest of the gang being their minions.
    It's interesting that the FBI never seems to have used the term mastermind in connection with Tonya. But they definitely believe that she assisted in the planning. So, while Tonya's role probably wouldn't fit the law-enforcement definition of the term, it might come close to what people sometimes visualize when they think of that word.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
    That's exactly what she said in the NBC documentary, including the word "mastermind".
    I mean, "before the NBC documentary." As I mentioned, she said nothing of the sort on Access Hollywood, and I've never heard her make such an assertion previously either.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    In your sympathy for Tonya, and desire to find her "not/less responsible"; some of your seem to have forgotten that Nancy was the victim in a crime that could have incapacitated her for life.
    Who is saying that Tonya is not responsible? And who is saying that Nancy wasn't a victim? Just because we may try to understand how Tonya's background could have led to her becoming involved in the scheme, that doesn't mean we think she isn't responsible. I mean, Nancy seems to be pretty charitable toward Tonya as well. Do you think she's actually forgotten that she was a victim?

    It's not usually done when/if investigators believe that they will be able to provide information about the details of the crime.
    I don't quite understand what you mean here.
    Last edited by neptune; 03-03-2014 at 04:52 AM.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Naw, Tonya outwitted herself. I think that's why she's so pissed off. Nancy is a convenient target but I think she's really mad at herself.
    Yes, Tonya outwitted herself, but since she never seems to take responsibility for anything, she probably irrationally blames what happened (to some degree anyway) on Nancy. Of course, I agree that deep down Tonya probably hates herself too. And the thing is, keeping this lie to herself is only going to continue her misery. It's safe to say that she will never be entirely happy unless she comes clean about what happened. Jeff may not be a person that any of us would ever want to meet, but he's not hiding anything about the crime anymore (to our knowledge), so he's far more likely to find happiness and peace than Tonya IMO.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by canbelto View Post
    Memory is fuzzy but Tonya claims she was divorced from Jeff when the whacking happened. If my memory is correct, didn't she only "separate" from him when he was implicated? And they didn't divorce till later that year.
    I found this statement: Tonya divorced Gillooly in the summer of 1993, but reconciled shortly thereafter. So, we can ask, "Why exactly did they reconcile?"

    I don;t think Jeff's a good guy or anything, but I always got the impression Tonya only dumped him when she realized he was going to jail.
    That may well be true. Tonya was definitely looking out for herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Not directly. As I said, it just makes it easier to believe Tonya's stories about her mother. OTOH, if Mrs. Harding had been married only once and was known as a loving, devoted wife, it would have made believing Tonya's accounts considerably more difficult.
    Not to me.

    I don't think you have a very good grasp on the dynamics of abuse. This is probably a good thing because it means you haven't got a lot of experience with it. But people who have been in abusive relationships, be they physical, emotional or sexual, will tell you that people who have it all together can be extremely abusive to selected people in their circles. Being in control of your own life is a completely separate issue from whether or not you abuse others. The idea that a loving and devoted wife wouldn't abuse her daughter is how many abusers get away with it. No one can believe they are abusers because they aren't out of control, screaming harpies.

    Now there is another issue with children of whether the home life is stable. If the home life isn't stable, this can cause problems even if the parent is loving. A parent can be loving and do their best but it might not be enough if there is poverty so there isn't enough food or if they have to move a lot, changing schools and missing a lot of school, or if there are SOs in and out of the house or even just an ever-changing circle of friends. But many times a loving and devoted parent can mitigate the disruption that kind of instability can cause. Especially when a child has an identified talent that can give them a safe haven.

    As for Rawlinson not calling CPS, I have mixed feelings. The problem is that CPS is often overworked and many times their actions do not better the situation. If you are in a position to provide stability to a child (in this case through skating) and feel you can protect that child somewhat from their bad home life, you might be reluctant to call them knowing they might end up putting the child back in the home anyway - but now you are the enemy and lose your access to the child and can't help any more -- or place the child with someone worse just because they are a family member and seem okay on paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Not to me.

    I don't think you have a very good grasp on the dynamics of abuse. This is probably a good thing because it means you haven't got a lot of experience with it.
    Actually, I've had a good bit of experience with it. Maybe I should have clarified that I personally would not have found her claims difficult to believe, but many people would have, because they don't really understand the dynamics involved.

    But people who have been in abusive relationships, be they physical, emotional or sexual, will tell you that people who have it all together can be extremely abusive to selected people in their circles.
    I think you must mean "who appear to have it all together." Or maybe it depends on how you define that term. In my book, if you're abusive, you don't have it all together, even though you may have many things together.

    Being in control of your own life is a completely separate issue from whether or not you abuse others. The idea that a loving and devoted wife wouldn't abuse her daughter is how many abusers get away with it. No one can believe they are abusers because they aren't out of control, screaming harpies.
    Oh, I definitely agree with that. IOW, a high percentage of abusers are masters at disguise.

    Now there is another issue with children of whether the home life is stable. If the home life isn't stable, this can cause problems even if the parent is loving. A parent can be loving and do their best but it might not be enough if there is poverty so there isn't enough food or if they have to move a lot, changing schools and missing a lot of school, or if there are SOs in and out of the house or even just an ever-changing circle of friends. But many times a loving and devoted parent can mitigate the disruption that kind of instability can cause. Especially when a child has an identified talent that can give them a safe haven.
    I agree with all that.

    As for Rawlinson not calling CPS, I have mixed feelings. The problem is that CPS is often overworked and many times their actions do not better the situation. If you are in a position to provide stability to a child (in this case through skating) and feel you can protect that child somewhat from their bad home life, you might be reluctant to call them knowing they might end up putting the child back in the home anyway - but now you are the enemy and lose your access to the child and can't help any more -- or place the child with someone worse just because they are a family member and seem okay on paper.
    OK, thank you for explaining that. In that case, Rawlinson may not necessarily have made the wrong decision. And she does seem to have been a good mother substitute in many ways for Tonya, helping shield her at least to some degree from the abuse by her mother.

  18. #238

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    neptune, several people in this thread have made "excuses" for Tonya's actions; or. feel that she bears less culpability than others for them.
    We should agree to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    neptune, several people in this thread have made "excuses" for Tonya's actions; or. feel that she bears less culpability than others for them.
    We should agree to disagree.
    skatesindreams, could you please specify exactly what the excuses have been? And Tonya bears less culpability than who for her actions?

    As I said, there is a big difference between understanding Tonya's psychology and "making excuses" for her behavior. I have not seen a single person in this thread say, "Oh, poor Tonya just couldn't help conspiring in the attack. In fact, she shouldn't have been penalized at all!" As far as culpability goes, are you referring to Tonya's not being considered the mastermind? If so, that was the FBI's assessment, and why should any of us disagree with that?

    Yes, we can certainly agree to disagree, but it would make matters easier if you could please clarify your statement.

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    This is cool--it appears that anyone who missed the original ESPN documentary can watch it here:

    http://vodlocker.com/7ulogoywijk8

    I had to click on several things to get the video started, but at least the site didn't require a credit card or anything.

    It seems that one person in this whole situation who nobody seems to have mentioned recently is Shane Stant. From what I've read, it appears he may have actually turned his life around.

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