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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    If Mirai had shown better choreography and performance thereof, she might have finished second instead of third, the team selection would be different, and we'd be having a different conversation.
    I hope you did not hurt yourself coming up with such a brilliant analysis.

    But why duck the question I raised?

    In your opinion is the determining factor in scoring based so much on the money available to a skater?

    Are you arguing that since Ashley and Miss string bean (sorry, I already forget her name) paid more money than Mirai for choreo they therefore deserve higher marks in the appropriate PC categories.

    What about execution of the program?
    I guess you are also anxious to deny any and all live fan response to a skater as a non-factor?

    We just live in different worlds gkelly.

    I trust what I see ,,,why don't you?
    Last edited by MrLucky; 01-14-2014 at 09:21 PM.

  2. #62

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    It's not about paying more money for choreography. It's about having easier choreography and not executing the same level of difficult choreography. One can be self-choreographed and have difficult programs. Abbott, for example. The issue was that Mirai clearly has a few rest periods (some more than others) and obviously rested on two feet. Of course, PCS should suffer for that.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #63
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    Oh geez. Does the Ashley/Mirai bickering have to take over *every* thread on this forum?

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.frog View Post
    Oh geez. Does the Ashley/Mirai bickering have to take over *every* thread on this forum?
    You can add people to your ignore list, rather than monitor other posters content as if this is Wikipedia
    Last edited by bardtoob; 01-14-2014 at 09:32 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It's not about paying more money for choreography. It's about having easier choreography and not executing the same level of difficult choreography. One can be self-choreographed and have difficult programs. Abbott, for example. The issue was that Mirai clearly has a few rest periods (some more than others) and obviously rested on two feet. Of course, PCS should suffer for that.
    Correct me if I am wrong here but didn't Russian skater Alena (I forget her last name) very recently win a Silver medal at Worlds with a program full of "posing" For that matter hasn't Yuna shown some pretty cool and appealing posing over the years?

    Can you spell "PLUSHENKO" or "JOUBERT"

    It is pretty hypocritical to think they did not use posing as part of their choreo quite successfully over the years.

    Getting back to Boston -what did the fans and JUDGES rate higher - some posing from Mirai or Wagner's "deer in the headlights" performance?

    Sorry but I must clarify here having seen many deer in my own cars headlights over the years I apologize to the deer.

    What they showed me was far more attractive than the almost agonizing LP I witnessed from Wagner at Boston.

    Posing , schmozing, the excuses from Wagner's fans are becoming comical.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    You can add people to your ignore list, rather than monitor other posters content as if this is Wikipedia


    And then monitor the pages of skaters they dislike 24/7 to make sure their Wikipedia page sounds as negative as possible. So much for objective entries. So mature.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

    Are you arguing that since Ashley and Miss string bean (sorry, I already forget her name)
    And that sums up your character perfectly. How lovely that you hurl childish nicknames at minors. Please don't ever reproduce.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I have a feeling it's more about the money. I'm sure had Sandra been offered $10,000 to choreograph a routine at the time (assuming what she said about NBC and conflict-of-interest being an issue now is the truth), then she would have taken that job.
    In the 90s, when I was skating, my grandmother (who paid for most of my skating) looked into getting Sandra to choreograph a program for me. That was the price she was told (mind you, in Canadian dollars ). Needless to say, we passed.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong here but didn't Russian skater Alena (I forget her last name) very recently win a Silver medal at Worlds with a program full of "posing" For that matter hasn't Yuna shown some pretty cool and appealing posing over the years?

    Can you spell "PLUSHENKO" or "JOUBERT"

    It is pretty hypocritical to think they did not use posing as part of their choreo quite successfully over the years.

    Getting back to Boston -what did the fans and JUDGES rate higher - some posing from Mirai or Wagner's "deer in the headlights" performance?

    Sorry but I must clarify here having seen many deer in my own cars headlights over the years I apologize to the deer.

    What they showed me was far more attractive than the almost agonizing LP I witnessed from Wagner at Boston.

    Posing , schmozing, the excuses from Wagner's fans are becoming comical.
    And haven't those above skaters been relentlessly criticized for lack of content in their PCS? Reputation judging aside from Plushenko, there was a lot of controversy when Joe Inman called him out for admitting his programs had no transitions. How are the PCS for Alena and Joubert now?

    Anyway, using those above examples don't do anything to really help Mirai's case.

    As to me being a Wanger fan, well I'm not the biggest Wagner fan (I do love her openness to speak out against the Russian anti-gay laws) and am critical about the way the USFS went about executing their selection procedures. However, it's not as if anything I've said regarding Mirai is blatantly untrue.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    And haven't those above skaters been relentlessly criticized for lack of content in their PCS? Reputation judging aside from Plushenko, there was a lot of controversy when Joe Inman called him out for admitting his programs had no transitions. How are the PCS for Alena and Joubert now?

    Anyway, using those above examples don't do anything to really help Mirai's case.

    As to me being a Wanger fan, well I'm not the biggest Wagner fan (I do love her openness to speak out against the Russian anti-gay laws) and am critical about the way the USFS went about executing their selection procedures. However, it's not as if anything I've said regarding Mirai is blatantly untrue.
    I never said your remarks about Mirai were "blatantly untrue. Those are your own words.

    I did make it pretty clear Mirai is not the first and won't be the last skater to ever "pose" in a program.

    I did make it clear that a little posing is typically preferable to out and out panic and choking from any competitive skater.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Sandra is often annoying, but she's not as bad as Scott. The only memorable and notable thing Scott said that made sense was his analogy (during Christina's fp) of trying to keep up with a conveyor belt in relation to having to get up from a fall and keep going with the rest of your program elements.

    After Sammi Cesario's fierce and determined free skate, Sandra started to rightly praise her, while USFS mouthpiece, Scott Hamilton, began croaking loudly about tech reviews. I think Sandra has great love for the sport and sometimes she offers fairly good insights, but she's not a very good commentator, especially not paired with Scott and whatshisname (I can never remember that guy's name -- he's a familiar face who hosts other sports on NBC, but he appears to know zip about figure skating, unlike the ever thoughtful and knowlegeable Terry Gannon).
    Sandra Bezic is less emotionally invested in American skaters than their Canadian counterparts. When she is working for the CBC, she takes on many of Scott Hamilton's worst qualities. I particularly recall her ripping into Emanuel Sandhu in 2006 or 2007 when she felt he was not properly prepared for Nationals.

    On a related topic, I recently listened to Michael Weiss's analysis of the top finishers U.S. Men's Short Program on Youtube and then heard Hamilton and Bezic's analysis of the same programs on NBC. Weiss talked less during the skates, and his comments were much more thoughtful.

    I wish that NBC would use Weiss and Tara Lipinski as their main analysts for figure skating. I have said it before, and I will say it again. Every time I have to listen to Sandra, I find myself muttering, "I will go back to Tara!"


  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Sandra Bezic is less emotionally invested in American skaters than their Canadian counterparts. :
    When NBC used to broadcast World Pros, Bezic showed a clear bias towards the SOI skaters and others she choreographed for.

    I think for most casual skating fans, Sandra and Scott are fine. They both are polished and have a tolerable speaking voice. The average viewer isn't invested enough in skating to want to go into too much detail. During the College Football National championships, ESPN showed the game with different sets of commentary on each of their channels and the one channel the die hard football fans really liked was where a few current football coaches were allowed to get as technical as they wanted in their commentary and to be off the cuff, so to speak. While the junkies loved it, most people were content to only watch the traditional coverage with Brent Mussberger. So while die hard skating fans would probably like someone to break down IJS, i think most just want a cliff notes style commentary.

  13. #73
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    The first eligible events I remember Sandra commentating for NBC was 1991 Europeans and Worlds (I believe with Dick Enberg and Robin Cousins). 1990 Worlds on CBS, Sandra did dance commentary with Verne Lundquist.

    In terms of Canada, Sandra did commentary with Paul Martini on CBC for the 1998 Winter Olympics in Nagano.

  14. #74
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    Actually, I'd just like the commentators to SHUT UP during the performance.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    I hope you did not hurt yourself coming up with such a brilliant analysis.

    But why duck the question I raised?

    In your opinion is the determining factor in scoring based so much on the money available to a skater?

    Are you arguing that since Ashley and Miss string bean (sorry, I already forget her name) paid more money than Mirai for choreo they therefore deserve higher marks in the appropriate PC categories.

    What about execution of the program?
    I guess you are also anxious to deny any and all live fan response to a skater as a non-factor?

    We just live in different worlds gkelly.

    I trust what I see ,,,why don't you?
    Oh my. Wasn't expecting this in this thread. Potentially time for a cooling off period. Money for choreography has nothing to do with the PCS scores. HAVING choreography and executing it does. As a reminder for the uninformed, PCS categories: Skating skills, Transitions/linking footwork/movements, performance/execution, choreography/composition, interpretation. All weighted equally. Since there are only 5, if you are seriously deficient in 2 or 3, your PCS takes a gigantic hit. Judges are trained to understand and recognize what is good, and not, for each level, and what an appropriate range of scores are within the level for- great, good, ok, not so good, and dreadful. Mr Lucky, I have two favors to ask: 1) please go review the judges detailed marks to better understand what was scored on the day. If you click on Championship ladies results, the detailed judges scores are in the upper right for the FS and for the short. It's very revealing. Mirai took a MINOR hit on choreography but had quite high marks for skating skills and performance, as she should have. Her undoing was PCS component #2 - transitions/footwork, at a 7.18. Frankly, based on what I recall of judges' school and what I saw that night, I'd say that's a tad high. Polina's PCS were very even across all, none as high as Mirai's highest and none as low as Mirai's lowest. Gracie was all in the 8's because of her superior skating skills (she's really fast) for starters. Mirai did not get dinged because she 'couldn't afford choreography'. I'm sure that program has choreography and linking steps. She just didn't do them because she was too tired, and, trust me, it is much, much harder to do jumps and spins out of transitions and linking steps (my kid struggled with this all the time). That's why you get a boost in PCS if you do this well. By the time you hit the halfway point in a program, you're tired. Keeping up those steps and such is tough. Mirai was visibly on two feet for large portions of that program, with very long pauses in between. Really, this mark should have been in the 6's. 2) Really inappropriate to be calling a minor, who has zero to do with what is going on, names of any kind. She is a US Olympian at this point and all should be supported graciously. Please, take some time to calm down.
    Last edited by zoe111; 01-15-2014 at 01:07 AM.

  16. #76

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    It is as clear as day that Mirai felt the pressure while skating the LP at Nationals, and kept her head together, focusing on doing her elements without falling. So, yes, her choreography suffered a little but no worse than one fall. We all know that had she fallen after the opening combo she would have been 4th, not 3rd. Nobody should fault her for being a good competitor ... actually, that is the crux of it, her biggest fault was peaking right on time when few can do that EVER, much less without a top coach, and it can't be a fluke flash in the pan situation because she was 4th at the last Olympics.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 01-15-2014 at 01:58 AM.

  17. #77

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    Wait...did Sandra Bezic choreograph Mirai's LP? Otherwise, why?

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Wait...did Sandra Bezic choreograph Mirai's LP? Otherwise, why?
    I imagine this started because Sandra made one small comment about Mirai's choreography during the NBC LP broadcast in response to Scott, who was anticipating a fall from Mirai due to her conditioning that never happened.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 01-15-2014 at 04:28 AM.

  19. #79
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    I think Brian Boitano's 1988 SP is another gem as well: http://youtu.be/Lk_IXnlbd1U

    What programs did Sandra choreograph for Kurt Browning?

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    I think Brian Boitano's 1988 SP is another gem as well: http://youtu.be/Lk_IXnlbd1U

    What programs did Sandra choreograph for Kurt Browning?
    Best ever Bezic choreo, for Kurt or anyone. Brilliant!

    Two links as I don't know which is best version
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BiwsJwepDE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qMuH6q6Sso
    My travel and adventure blog http://alisonanddon.wordpress.com

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