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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurodance2001 View Post
    I don't think she declined because she's listed as the alternate..
    I think she will not file an appeal so she can at least be an alternate. Good things will happen for her if she stays calm (although I know how hard it must be for her right now).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I hope Nagasu sues USFS and wins.
    Well keep hoping since she doesnt have a flying fig chance of winning if she stoops to something so foolish.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    TRUTH.

    Also Marco, what about Johnny Weir at 2009 Nationals? He medaled at all of his GP events, won the bronze at GPF, and then proceeded to bomb Nationals due to being sick and was denied a place on the World team. The only difference between him and Wagner is that Wagner was not the reigning World bronze medalist.
    Lysacek though was a 2 time World bronze medalist and Abbott was that years Grand Prix final Champion. So his results didnt stand out amongst his peers much or any, certainly nothing to justify a bye despite a poor result. Who should have been dumped for Weir, Lysacek or Abbott, ROTFL!! No women has come close to Wagner's international results the last 2 or 3 years overall, not even Gold who is a clear but distant 2nd.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    I hope Brown skates brilliantly in Sochi and then the USFSA and NBC has to explain to the casual viewers and the rest of the skating world that he doesn't get to go to worlds becuase... something, something, hockey, quad jump.
    Exactly. I said this in another thread and I'll say it again. It's about frkng time some differentiation was done PCS wise in the FS. Yes, Aaron has the quads but artistically he is not in the same league as Abbott or Brown yet he would still be semi close to them score wise in that department. Not today.. In fact, Aaron's PCS was lower than Abbott, Brown, Farris, Rippon and Miner.. Finally..

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Lysacek though was a 2 time World bronze medalist and Abbott was that years Grand Prix final Champion. So his results didnt stand out amongst his peers much or any, certainly nothing to justify a bye despite a poor result. Who should have been dumped for Weir, Lysacek or Abbott, ROTFL!! No women has come close to Wagner's international results the last 2 or 3 years overall, not even Gold who is a clear but distant 2nd.
    The junior guy who came in 2nd at Nationals, aka. Brandon Mroz? The men still had 3 spots thanks to Weir winning bronze at 2008 Worlds, Carriere was 10th and Abbott 11th.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Lysacek though was a 2 time World bronze medalist and Abbott was that years Grand Prix final Champion. So his results didnt stand out amongst his peers much or any, certainly nothing to justify a bye despite a poor result. Who should have been dumped for Weir, Lysacek or Abbott, ROTFL!! No women has come close to Wagner's international results the last 2 or 3 years overall, not even Gold who is a clear but distant 2nd.
    You're forgetting Brandon Mroz who had a worse record than Mirai Nagasu coming into 2009 Nationals. Of course he did place second to Evan's third. But then people are making the same arguments in favor of Wagner over both Edmunds and Nagasu and would make it even if Nagasu and Edmunds's placements had been reversed. I think people are actively looking the other way if they don't want to admit that the USFS inconsistently chooses to invoke this selection criteria based on their own whims.

    Oh btw Johnny beat Evan at Skate America that season and qualified and medaled at GPF unlike Evan who was second alternate. Weir also had a world medal the previous year to boot vs. Lysaceck's no medal (due to his withdrawal). Lysacek's previous World medal was three seasons before 2009 Nationals.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Lysacek though was a 2 time World bronze medalist and Abbott was that years Grand Prix final Champion. So his results didnt stand out amongst his peers much or any, certainly nothing to justify a bye despite a poor result. Who should have been dumped for Weir, Lysacek or Abbott, ROTFL!!
    Brandon Mroz, of course, he of few international accomplishments at the time who basically ended up being a one-hit wonder.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Well keep hoping since she doesnt have a flying fig chance of winning if she stoops to something so foolish.
    If she is done with skating then I'd love to see her go one every talk show she could. Suing would probably get her nowhere. But she could get a lot of well deserved public empathy and garner bad publicity for the USFSA by doing talk shows and sharing her story. She wouldn't have to express anything really nasty just bask in everyone's dismay about how she has been treated. She will win in the court of public opinion. If her love of skating and desire to compete remains, then she will have to suck it up, and live with the cruelty to continue her dream.

  9. #69
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    Thankfully, Mirai is not as dumb/ungracious as her overly zealous fans suggest.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    I think the message they're trying to send - not just to Mirai but all the skaters - is that you can't just pull it together at the last minute. You have to have a consistent season, and a stable coaching situation. Overall, probably a good message.

    That said, I still feel that Mirai was robbed. I don't think it was at all clear that the game had changed on her, and she pulled two astonishing performances together at Nationals. The commentators said that she had been incredibly focused all week, and her jumps were the best I've seen them in years. It seems like she's finally taken control of her own skating, and I have a feeling she would have skated beautifully at the Olympics OR at Worlds. Right now, it just feels as if the federation changed the rules right when it was most convenient for them, by finally invoking rules that had always been in place but that they had pointedly not used except in the case of world medalists who were injured, which Ashley most certainly was not.

    I've been frustrated with the USFSA for decisions before, most of all when Jeremy Abbott was left off the World team for placing just .18 off. Right now, it just seems like they are hungry for any young phenom they can get their hands on and anoint the next Michelle Kwan. Under that logic, screw anyone over 19, who's already proved themselves unworthy.

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    I do believe that if Mirai was still with Frank and skated the way she did and came in 3rd, I would think she would be going to worlds at least..

  12. #72
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    Actually, I wonder if this was in the back of her mind all along, that if she just pulled it together at Nationals, she'd get to go to the Olympics. It happened the last time, in 2010. Why wouldn't it work this time? Especially since the federation had been so consistent in choosing just the people who placed to go to the Olympics. So she procrastinated, and then pulled it together, and this time the USFSA turned its back.

    I know Frank Carroll dumped her as a student, and is coaching two of her rivals - Polina and Gracie - but I imagine that he cares enough about her to give her some advice and kind words. I think it would mean a great deal to her right now.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    You're forgetting Brandon Mroz who had a worse record than Mirai Nagasu coming into 2009 Nationals. Of course he did place second to Evan's third. But then people are making the same arguments in favor of Wagner over both Edmunds and Nagasu and would make it even if Nagasu and Edmunds's placements had been reversed. I think people are actively looking the other way if they don't want to admit that the USFS inconsistently chooses to invoke this selection criteria based on their own whims.

    Oh btw Johnny beat Evan at Skate America that season and qualified and medaled at GPF unlike Evan who was second alternate. Weir also had a world medal the previous year to boot vs. Lysaceck's no medal (due to his withdrawal). Lysacek's previous World medal was three seasons before 2009 Nationals.
    I forgot they had 3 spots that year (I knew Weir medalled at the 2008 Worlds but that doesnt automatically give you 3 spots). Obviously even thinking of putting Weir on the team over either Abbott or Lysacek after being 5th at Nationals would have been CRAZY, and thinking of only 2 spots that is the lines of was thinking along. That is something we can all agree on I am sure. I guess you could make a case to send him over Mroz but Mroz was 2nd at Nationals to 5th for Weir. That is a pretty huge gap. It is not the same as if they were 3rd and 4th. They probably felt the result at Nationals was too big a difference to ignore.

    As for Evan, well we see what Evan did at Worlds, so it sure would have been incredibly stupid to send Weir over him.

  14. #74
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    Has there ever been another time when four uninjured skaters competed at Nationals, and fourth place trumped third for the World Championships?

    Skating has struggled so much for legitimacy, resulting in the switch to the ISU system. By robbing a skater the system is meant to reward, which would mean relying on PURE numbers rather than how everyone 'feels', the USFSA proves that outcomes are just as based on politics as before. They said it was an 'objective' decision, but when have they ever made this kind of decision before? I can kind of get it for the Olympics, but it seems completely unprecedented for Worlds. I don't love the ISU system, but it's maddening to see how little it means, after all the agonizing effort to implement it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurodance2001 View Post
    Exactly. I said this in another thread and I'll say it again. It's about frkng time some differentiation was done PCS wise in the FS. Yes, Aaron has the quads but artistically he is not in the same league as Abbott or Brown yet he would still be semi close to them score wise in that department. Not today.. In fact, Aaron's PCS was lower than Abbott, Brown, Farris, Rippon and Miner.. Finally..
    I think that was probably a mistake in fact. Aaron has a better chance top place well at the Games than Brown. Even with how beautiful Brown's skating is he does not have the rep to pull in huge PCS from international judges. He wont get PCS anywhere near Chan, Hanyu, Takahashi, that is for sure, even if he deserves them. Aaron with his jumps has a better chance of placing well than Brown, and Brown would never get scores like that internationally as a relative newbie without a quad. Not even close. I believe if both their programs were down in front of an international panel Aaron would have come out ahead.

  16. #76
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    Jeez, I could have sworn Jason Brown won a GP medal this season. In fact, I seem to recall he had a 3rd and a 5th finish while Aaron had a 3rd and a 7th finish. I guess I imagined it.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Jeez, I could have sworn Jason Brown won a GP medal this season. In fact, I seem to recall he had a 3rd and a 5th finish while Aaron had a 3rd and a 7th finish. I guess I imagined it.
    Aaron wasnt skating well on the grand prix and still managed a grand prix bronze (which was almost a silver, unlike Brown) just as Brown did, so what is your point. My point is if both skate well internationally Aaron will score higher. Brown wont get super high PCS internationally, he just doesnt have enough name value yet. So Aaron with his technical content would have more chance to score well. Do you really think Brown is going to score over 90 points in PCS or gain 15 points in GOE anywhere but U.S Nationals to compensate for not having any quads. Please. I really like his skating too but be realistic.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by edonice View Post
    I think the message they're trying to send - not just to Mirai but all the skaters - is that you can't just pull it together at the last minute. You have to have a consistent season, and a stable coaching situation. Overall, probably a good message.

    That said, I still feel that Mirai was robbed. I don't think it was at all clear that the game had changed on her, and she pulled two astonishing performances together at Nationals. The commentators said that she had been incredibly focused all week, and her jumps were the best I've seen them in years. It seems like she's finally taken control of her own skating, and I have a feeling she would have skated beautifully at the Olympics OR at Worlds. Right now, it just feels as if the federation changed the rules right when it was most convenient for them, by finally invoking rules that had always been in place but that they had pointedly not used except in the case of world medalists who were injured, which Ashley most certainly was not.

    I've been frustrated with the USFSA for decisions before, most of all when Jeremy Abbott was left off the World team for placing just .18 off. Right now, it just seems like they are hungry for any young phenom they can get their hands on and anoint the next Michelle Kwan. Under that logic, screw anyone over 19, who's already proved themselves unworthy.
    That's kind of unfair seeing as Wagner is older than Mirai. I think they could care less how old you are they just want results. IF you look at previous results, were any previous Olympic teams, people that USFSA didn't want to send? I think this was the first time the top US lady internationally didn't qualify through Nationals. (except for injury) Its really not so much that the USFSA changed the rules, as much as they never had to invoke the rules. However, Mirai's great skate if everyone did their best was going to give her fourth, and off the team. Mirai, for her last four years, was going to get no benefit of the doubt.

    I think there are times when they feel like in pairs, nobody's medaling so why not send top two. Same goes for last years Olympics neither Flatt, Mirai or Wagner were all that grand...So oh well take top 2.

    And I cry foul that Ashley's results are only a little better than D/C's. Ashley medaled at the GPF, D/C didn't even make it.

    In terms of Mroz I'd point out, he was quite young, so why not give him a shot, to get some experience... I don't think Mirai invokes the same feelings.

  19. #79
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    I just don't know. Max Aaron is no longer the US reigning champion. Brown just outskated Aaron for the Olympic team. That may impress the judges into giving him the PCS he deserves if he deserves them.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  20. #80
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    Jason Brown's PB from 2013 TEB is more than 4.5 points higher than Max Aaron's PB from 2013 Worlds, and scores tend to rise as the season goes on. I don't see that int'l judges have any problem with Brown, giving him very strong PCS marks.
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