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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    Do you guys actually see a lot of people lip synching to vocal music while competing? I haven't seen that. Well, with the exception of Emmanuel Sandhu's program, which only included a second or so of "Oh".
    No, it is rare.
    I see it more in artistic/interpretive events where it is used as a feature of the program.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    But again, one's personal opinion of whether it's "tacky" shouldn't be factored into the judging (obviously judging is never going to be completely objective and there are subjective factors that can influence one's perceptions, but judges should try their best to use the actual judging criteria as objectively as possible).
    It is tacky, a cheap gimmick and most skaters do it because they really don't know what else to do. And from my judging perspective it does factor in my judging because it is not original. Anyone can lipsynch, not everyone can do choreography and movement to the music.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    There's a bit in low-level showcase programs but I hardly think it will show up much in free skates. The skaters are usually saving their breath for the jumps.

    After spending a week at Nationals, I'm actually looking forward to hearing some music that isn't overused ballet scores or screeching violins for a change.
    "You just can't underestimate the power of positive underwear." 2013 Fruit of the Loom ad

  4. #24

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    Obviously a skater who only lip synchs and doesn't do choreography or movement to music shouldn't get very good marks, but they shouldn't get worse marks than if they had failed to do any choreography or movement to the music and DIDN'T lip synch (in fact they should probably get at least slightly better marks, because they're at least showing a connection to the music in SOME way). Nor should a skater who does choreography and movement to the music AND lip synchs get worse marks than a skater who does choreography and movement to the music but doesn't lip synch. As zaphyre said I would be impressed if a skater could do all that at the same time. If done well it can show an increased connection with the music and program, IMO. However, I wouldn't want to see everyone do it because then it would become unoriginal and I prefer to see a variety of styles and types of music (including non-vocal music) used, but I would try my best not to let that personal opinion of mine negatively affect my judging of skaters who did do it effectively.

  5. #25

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    From the judging side of things, if any skater comes and asks me for feedback after an artistic program and they have lip synched, I will tell them how much I personally don't like it. It is up to them whether they choose to do it in future, but most of them don't realise that most judges (yes it is the ones I know) don't like it.

    There are other things that also come into the artistic side of judging as well, such as the suitability of the music to the skater. This includes whether the music is "age appropriate" or whether the music works with the ability of the skater. Again all subjective criteria but these things all come into play about how a judge views a skater.

    Most of the time skaters ask for feedback from a judge, the judge is going to provide feedback based on their personal likes and dislikes because it is a subjectively judged sport, particularly on the components. A skater could ask what a judge thinks about their music. Depending on the judge they could tell the skater they love it or hate it. A judge could say that piece of music is better suited to the step sequence whereas the coach or choreographer hasn't put the step sequence in that place. I have suggested to skaters to switch elements around in a program because in my opinion they will have better success with the elements.

    Skaters can choose to ignore or take on the advice of a judge. It is up to them.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    Do you guys actually see a lot of people lip synching to vocal music while competing? I haven't seen that. Well, with the exception of Emmanuel Sandhu's program, which only included a second or so of "Oh".
    Just a few examples (all from ice dance):
    -Madison Chock (when she would skate with Greg Zuerlin) and the Reeds when both pairs skated to "Cabaret";
    -didn't Elena Ilynykh lip synch in this dreadful "Ghost" routine?'
    -a few years back, Barbora Silna (skating with Dimitri Matsjuk then) sang all programme long to Meat Loaf ().

    Probably there are some more instances, but I can't recall anything more now. Maybe the number of cases is not excessive, but for me lip synching is awfully distracting...

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    I know it happens that judges do discuss their preferences but in the U.S. at least they are urged not to according to ethical guidelines (see http://www.usfsa.org/content/00S-PSc...Manual2-02.pdf
    ). Obviously there are gray areas involved, and one's reason for "liking" or "not liking" something might legitimately have to do with feeling that it meets or doesn't meet established judging criteria. Most of the time I like things I think are good and don't like things I think are bad, and in those cases obviously that should be reflected in the marks, but there are other reasons I might like or dislike something that shouldn't be reflected in the marks and I try to be careful how I think about and phrase things to avoid coming off as letting my personal preferences get in the way of my judgment. Being objective is of extreme importance to me (see my attempt at a more objective method of scoring transitions in Great Skate Debate for an example) even though I'm certainly not perfect. I was disappointed when Gracie Gold dumped her SP even though I many disliked the music and I personally didn't like it either. I thought she used the music very well, had good choreography, and it was different, and it annoys me that so many seemed unable to get past the music itself that she seemed to have gotten the feedback to dump the program altogether. If I had critiqued her as an official, I would not have seen it as my place to express personal dislike of the music and hope I would not have mentioned it unless specifically asked, in which case I may have been honest that I personally didn't but that I thought she used it well and it didn't matter to me in my judgment whether I liked it or not. (Likewise, Kwan's "Miraculous Mandarin" program I thought had really good choreography but she was allegedly told to dump it by people who personally didn't like the music and I think that's unfortunate.)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    I don't lip-synch but I have been known to sing along while I skate. None of the judges ever told me that they "hated it" and a couple told me they were impressed that I could do both! Of course, it was a character piece that I was acting out, so singing along was part of the program. I don't know that I'd do it if it was something dramatic or just vocal music as part of a freeskate program. That would be silly.
    Many of the skaters at my rink lip synch their artistic/showcase programs. They seem to do very well at competitions - almost always medaling! I do for my light entertainment but not my dramatic...fits with the character of the one program and not the other. I think it stems from the fact that our show/skating director has a Disney on Ice background and we always lip-synch the shows - so our skaters are used to singing/skating - and it is much harder then just skating!!

  9. #29
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    IMHO if you need to lip synch to get the idea across, why are you skating? You could stand on a stage or somewhere else
    and "sing" and move or dance and get the same effect. Sorry, but I think the only place for lip syncing in skating is in an ice show where a character has to 'speak' as part of telling the story.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  10. #30

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    ^^ This!
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    IMHO if you need to lip synch to get the idea across, why are you skating? You could stand on a stage or somewhere else
    and "sing" and move or dance and get the same effect. Sorry, but I think the only place for lip syncing in skating is in an ice show where a character has to 'speak' as part of telling the story.
    Well...that is basically what we are doing - all the numbers that are lip-synched are ice show numbers - either group or solo - and you only say the words that your "character" says. Like I said, I think it comes from the ice show background that many of our coaches have. We do full production ice shows - basically musicals on ice. It gets good feedback at competitions in my region...elsewhere may vary!

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    IMHO if you need to lip synch to get the idea across, why are you skating? You could stand on a stage or somewhere else
    and "sing" and move or dance and get the same effect. Sorry, but I think the only place for lip syncing in skating is in an ice show where a character has to 'speak' as part of telling the story.
    Once again, if one needs to lip synch to get the idea across then that doesn't deserve high marks. The skating and body movements should be able to get the idea across to get good marks, but if the skater can do all that AND lip synch I certainly wouldn't give lower marks due to the lip synching.

    Regarding age-appropriateness, the one Juvenile program where the skater was singing/lip synching I also personally felt was kind of age inappropriate. But there's no deduction for that and I don't think it's the judge's job to make that determination, but the parents' and the coaches'. The judges are there to make skating judgments, not moral judgments. On a somewhat related note, I've seen a controversial Theatre on Ice program from a French team where a theme of terrorism/bombing was portrayed that made a lot of people uncomfortable, but it was executed well and the skating was good so they placed well with it. I'd be interested to see more "edgy" programs that push the envelope and are original, but if skaters perceive that the judges might unfairly mark them down for it I can see why more don't, and why we see so many of the same music and themes used over and over (though I also personally love almost all "overused" skating music-- which again, I try not to let affect my judgment of the skating, because it's not relevant whether I personally like the music. The one piece I can think of that I've seen used a fair number of times and can barely stand to listen to is Blues for Klook, but I've seen some great programs to that music and would mark them very highly).
    Last edited by RFOS; 01-15-2014 at 03:18 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Once again, if one needs to lip synch to get the idea across then that doesn't deserve high marks. The skating and body movements should be able to get the idea across to get good marks, but if the skater can do all that AND lip synch I certainly wouldn't give lower marks due to the lip synching.
    I'm not a judge, but I would give lower marks for lip syncing. If the skater can get the idea across without lip syncing, there's no reason for them to lip sync. This isn't a karaoke competition.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kachilyn View Post
    Well...that is basically what we are doing - all the numbers that are lip-synched are ice show numbers - either group or solo - and you only say the words that your "character" says. Like I said, I think it comes from the ice show background that many of our coaches have. We do full production ice shows - basically musicals on ice. It gets good feedback at competitions in my region...elsewhere may vary!
    I'm having a little trouble understanding this. I know there are competitions like Theatre on Ice or group competition numbers, but I've never seen any of those in competition with lip syncing as a major component.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Regarding age-appropriateness, the one Juvenile program where the skater was singing/lip synching I also personally felt was kind of age inappropriate. But there's no deduction for that and I don't think it's the judge's job to make that determination, but the parents' and the coaches'.
    Yes you can give a lower CH or IN mark if you think the program was age inappropriate, particularly in artistic judging. How else is a skater meant to get the message if not through the judges? In that case the coach and parent probably think it is okay.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Yes you can give a lower CH or IN mark if you think the program was age inappropriate, particularly in artistic judging. How else is a skater meant to get the message if not through the judges? In that case the coach and parent probably think it is okay.
    From creeped out spectators?

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    From creeped out spectators?
    Oooo that is bad.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Obviously a skater who only lip synchs and doesn't do choreography or movement to music shouldn't get very good marks, but they shouldn't get worse marks than if they had failed to do any choreography or movement to the music and DIDN'T lip synch (in fact they should probably get at least slightly better marks, because they're at least showing a connection to the music in SOME way). Nor should a skater who does choreography and movement to the music AND lip synchs get worse marks than a skater who does choreography and movement to the music but doesn't lip synch. As zaphyre said I would be impressed if a skater could do all that at the same time. If done well it can show an increased connection with the music and program, IMO. However, I wouldn't want to see everyone do it because then it would become unoriginal and I prefer to see a variety of styles and types of music (including non-vocal music) used, but I would try my best not to let that personal opinion of mine negatively affect my judging of skaters who did do it effectively.
    I don't know, I know this isn't an example of figure skating competition, but on all of the performance type shows we have here like strictly come dancing (dancing with the stars in the US), and Dancing on Ice the judges always criticise the people who lip synch along with the lyrics of a song and the impression I always get is that it's a massive no-no or faux pas to lip synch along to a song when you are performing to it not mimicking it.

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    Look, if I like the music that I'm skating (and why would I pick it if I did't?) and I know the words, I may sing along while I'm skating. And I mean SING, not lip-synch. I don't stop skating just to sing, but if the character I'm portraying can sing AND dance at the same time, then I sure as heck can sing and skate. The judges probably can't hear me, given the size of the rink and the volume of the recording, but frankly, I don't care. I'm having a good time being Lola or Maria or The Grinch or Pippen and I'm going to show it!

    Once again, though, we're talking showcase programs here, and ones based on Broadway roles, specifically, which make choreography and acting a necessity.

    The new rules allow vocal music during free skate programs. It's been going in at lower levels and in dance for a few years now and I can't say I've seen anyone mouthing words obviously during those programs. ISI has been using vocal music for free skate programs all along and I don't think that's been an issue with them (although some of the music choices I've heard at there competitions have been questionable in appropriateness). I have heard some judges express fears of having to sit through hours of PrePre girls skating to Miley Cyrus and One Direction songs, but if that's what it takes to keep kids interested in the sport, then fine, go for it.
    "You just can't underestimate the power of positive underwear." 2013 Fruit of the Loom ad

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I don't know, I know this isn't an example of figure skating competition, but on all of the performance type shows we have here like strictly come dancing (dancing with the stars in the US), and Dancing on Ice the judges always criticise the people who lip synch along with the lyrics of a song and the impression I always get is that it's a massive no-no or faux pas to lip synch along to a song when you are performing to it not mimicking it.
    I'm one who strongly tries to resist giving into pressure that goes against my own nature and values and it doesn't always lead to the best social results for me. There are a lot of conventions and etiquette rules that just don't make any sense to me, for example (the wedding and fashion threads for example always make me :run: So many people getting so worked up over the exact way everything "needs to" or should be, for no logical reason that I can see. I guess I try to be logical, probably to a fault sometimes, but I don't give a crap what people wear or if they commit a social "no-no" that doesn't harm anyone. One of my least favorite phrases I've started hearing recently is "No. Just no." As if saying "just no" makes something wrong and there doesn't need to be an actual reason to be so freaking judgmental of others and their choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    Look, if I like the music that I'm skating (and why would I pick it if I did't?) and I know the words, I may sing along while I'm skating. And I mean SING, not lip-synch. I don't stop skating just to sing, but if the character I'm portraying can sing AND dance at the same time, then I sure as heck can sing and skate. The judges probably can't hear me, given the size of the rink and the volume of the recording, but frankly, I don't care. I'm having a good time being Lola or Maria or The Grinch or Pippen and I'm going to show it!

    Once again, though, we're talking showcase programs here, and ones based on Broadway roles, specifically, which make choreography and acting a necessity.

    The new rules allow vocal music during free skate programs. It's been going in at lower levels and in dance for a few years now and I can't say I've seen anyone mouthing words obviously during those programs. ISI has been using vocal music for free skate programs all along and I don't think that's been an issue with them (although some of the music choices I've heard at there competitions have been questionable in appropriateness). I have heard some judges express fears of having to sit through hours of PrePre girls skating to Miley Cyrus and One Direction songs, but if that's what it takes to keep kids interested in the sport, then fine, go for it.

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