Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 59
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,572
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2066
    The New York Times has an article today about Mao.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    555
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Thoughtful comments from Lori Nichol throughout the article. Always so impressed by how articulate she and Sandra Bezic can be in interviews.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    'Me so ashamed of my English'
    Age
    31
    Posts
    18,016
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Speaking of layouts, why doesn't Sotnikova ditch the 3 lutz/3loop and replace it with another 2 axel/3toe. I've never see her miss that combo..

    2 axel/3toe
    3lutz
    3flip
    3loop
    2axel/3toe
    3flip/2toe/2loop
    3salchow

    Boom....much Higher base than Mao AND Yu- Na

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Getting drunk with Athos
    Posts
    5,005
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33078
    Man who wrote the article isn't exactly a technical guru. From the article about Akiko's win http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2.../#.Ur79yva4uGQ

    Knowing the trip to Sochi was in her grasp, Murakami was cool under pressure to “Papa, Can You Hear Me?” while cleanly hitting six triple jumps. Her lone mistake was landing on the wrong edge on a triple lutz, but it didn’t matter in the end.
    Yes, apparently the 'e' for a lutz stands for a pulled landing, not for flutzing. So I'm sure Mao will follow his advice to a T.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,151
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    As others have said, she should aim for one in each program.

    She should repeat her two money jumps in the free -- the 3F and the 3Lo, and move the 2A+3T up while her legs are still fresh (it would have the same entry pattern as the second 3A).

    For example:

    3A
    2A+3T
    3F
    3Lo+2Lo
    3S
    3F+2Lo+2Lo
    3Lo

    That's 7 triples that she can do pretty cleanly, and excludes the possible negative GOEs she can get on a 3Lz or 3F+3Lo.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    In weirdo land...
    Posts
    392
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Thank you, ioana, for pointing out that tiny bit of technical wisdom. I missed it upon the first reading and it made me chuckle now.

    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Boom....much Higher base than Mao
    Not really. The above layout has 46.13 BV, Mao's BV for the LP with 2 3As is 51.76, for the LP with one 3A and 3F-3L is 53.06, one 3A and 3F-2L - 49.76.

    AND Yu- Na
    Yes, but that's not diffucult. If Adelina added 2t to one of her combos at TEB, her BV would already be higher than Yuna's. Although, yes, a layout with two 2A-3Ts would be smart - not only getting 2A-3T ratified with good GoE would be easier than managing the same with 3Lz-3L, but also the GoE of a single 2A is quantified by 0.5, while in combination with 3T - by a 0.7.

    I guess it's a reputation thing. For most of the female skaters a solid BV would not be enough, because without appropriate reputation they are unlikely to be awarded with really high PCS/GoEs. Going for a difficult triple-triple is their way of setting themselves apart from the pack; their "wow" element of sorts.

    Speaking of "wow" elements - I wish Mao'd go for: 3A, 2A-3T, 3F, 2A-3T, 3S, 3F-2L-2L, 3L. Very high BV (49.36 - almost as high as the one with 3F-3L), comparatively low risk and no need to tweak the choreo.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    'Me so ashamed of my English'
    Age
    31
    Posts
    18,016
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Thanks for the calculations inskate. Would you happen to know what Maos highest base value this season as actually been?

    Really like your final layout and I agree with your rep=high GOE comments.

    Interesting to see that with the 2 double axel rule, Yu-na has lost a lot of points.

    I wonder what
    3lutz/3toe
    3flip
    3salchow
    2axel 3toe 2 toe
    2axel
    3 lutz
    2 flip/ 2 loop or 2 lutz to end...

    Would it make much of a difference to current layout?
    I am glad there's a relative punishment for not having every jump in your arsenal. Disappointed to see Kim not try get the loop back. If Freakin Liashenko can do it (once in her career :p. ) then Kim can too...

  8. #28
    Curiously curious
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    411
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1357
    Yeah, I would have loved to see Yuna continue to do the 3Loop throughout her career.

    The scores on her best skates are monstrous even without it. With it, she might as well move to the Mens discipline.

    But if I had a history of serious hip injury, and was worried about the possibility of a career-ending injury with the stresses of that jump, and I knew I could win without it, then I'd probably make exactly the same choice.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    17,017
    vCash
    1561
    Rep Power
    4990
    I think Kim had some mental issues with it too.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    In weirdo land...
    Posts
    392
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Thanks for the calculations inskate. Would you happen to know what Maos highest base value this season as actually been?
    Planned or actually landed? Planned - the one with 3F-3L obviously (3A, 3F-3L, 3Lz, || 2A-3T, 3S, 3F-2L-2L, 3L) as it has 8 triples in it. To compare (just the jumps):

    3A 8.50
    3F-3L 10.40
    3Lz 6.00
    --
    2A-3T 8.14
    3S 4.62
    3F-2L-2L 9.79
    3L 5.61
    __________
    53.06



    3A 8.50
    3F-2L 7.10
    3Lz 6.00
    --
    2A-3T 8.14
    3S 4.62
    3F-2L-2L 9.79
    3L 5.61
    __________
    49.76



    3A 8.50
    3A-2T 9.80
    3F 5.30
    --
    2A-3T 8.14
    3S 4.62
    3F-2L-2L 9.79
    3L 5.61
    __________
    51.76

    As for the jumps actually executed in competition (with GoE factored), NHK and GPF were pretty close, with NHK being 1.49 points ahead. The GPF LP would be ahead (despite the messy axels) if Mao didn't mess up her 3F-2L-2L combo.
    (Speaking of which, I really wish they'd change the approach to the combo, because (as it is planned to be landed right on the beats of the music) Mao keeps getting too close to the boards to keep the speed necessary to rotate the loops. At Nats she nearly run into the boards.)

    Some other calculations, just for fun & to have some idea what the layouts would be worth (using the GoEs/PCS actually scored this year, although they would be likely to be a bit higher for a visibly clean performance):

    3A, 3F-3L & 3Lz from 4CC, 3F-2L-2L & PCS from NHK, the rest from GPF:
    3A 10.7
    3F-3L< 8.50
    3Lz 5.70
    CCoSp4 4.14
    FCSp4 3.91
    --
    2A-3T 9.34
    3S 5.62
    3F-2L-2L 10.29
    3L 6.31
    FCCoSp4 4.07
    StSq4 5.70
    ChSq1 3.30
    ----
    77.58 + 70.23
    147.81


    3A from 4CC, 3F-2L-2L & PCS from NHK, the rest from GPF:
    3A 10.7
    2A-3T 8.60
    3F 6.10
    CCoSp4 4.14
    FCSp4 3.91
    --
    2A-3T 9.34
    3S 5.62
    3F-2L-2L 10.29
    3L 6.31
    FCCoSp4 4.07
    StSq4 5.70
    ChSq1 3.30
    ----
    78.08 + 70.23
    148.31

    The difference between 3F-3L< (4CC LP) and clean 3F-2L (NHK) was 0.8 in favor of 3F-3L< (with GoE factored).



    Interesting to see that with the 2 double axel rule, Yu-na has lost a lot of points.
    Yes, although to make up for it, the judges are much more generous with +3s for the jumps (which were an extreme rarity in the previous Olympic cycle).

    I wonder what
    3lutz/3toe
    3flip
    3salchow
    2axel 3toe 2 toe
    2axel
    3 lutz
    2 flip/ 2 loop or 2 lutz to end...

    Would it make much of a difference to current layout?
    The BV would be a tiny bit smaller (41.29 vs 42.52), with some decimals of a point gained via factoring (for example, if both 2A-2T-2L and 2A-3T-2T from +3 for every judge, the final GoE for the first pass would be 1.5, for the one with 3T - 2.1).

    The most CoP-smart would be probably:
    3Lz
    3F-2T
    3S
    --
    2A-3T
    3Lz-2T-2L
    3F
    2A
    ----
    44.51, although I'm not sure how Yuna would feel about repeating 3F and doing a Lutz combo in the 2nd half.


    I am glad there's a relative punishment for not having every jump in your arsenal. Disappointed to see Kim not try get the loop back. If Freakin Liashenko can do it (once in her career :p. ) then Kim can too...
    No one is more disappointed than me. I lost 3 Starbucks caramel brûlée lattes betting shortly before Golden Spin on the fact that she'll have 3L back this season. Eff the Korean officials who said (before GS) that Yuna's programs are filled with better technical elements than last season, and "cannot really get better both technically and artistically."

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    378
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Yeah, I would have loved to see Yuna continue to do the 3Loop throughout her career.

    The scores on her best skates are monstrous even without it. With it, she might as well move to the Mens discipline.

    But if I had a history of serious hip injury, and was worried about the possibility of a career-ending injury with the stresses of that jump, and I knew I could win without it, then I'd probably make exactly the same choice.
    Not anymore, Everyone's going for at least 2 quads n a competition now,
    Though in 2010 it was possible,
    Considering that a male adjusted PCS score would have had her FS beating Evan's

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Age
    38
    Posts
    17,615
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    She clearly loves doing the 3A and I see nothing wrong with it. It just so happens that without it she has no chance of beating Yu na.
    I know that's been said before, but are we sure about it? I know it's one of the greatest weapons in her arsenal -- maybe the greatest -- but she's still an exceptional skater without it.
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club
    Old, lonely, pathos-hungry, and extremely gullible

  13. #33
    Curiously curious
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    411
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1357
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Not anymore, Everyone's going for at least 2 quads n a competition now,
    Though in 2010 it was possible,
    Considering that a male adjusted PCS score would have had her FS beating Evan's
    I didn't say she'd win. But something like 240 total in ladies, when adjusted for the additional jump pass and higher PCS factoring, would be pretty respectable...Just kidding (kinda sorta. Yeah, I know she probably wouldn't get the same kind of GOE or SS/TR relatively speaking, yada yada yada)

  14. #34
    Curiously curious
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    411
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1357
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    I know that's been said before, but are we sure about it? I know it's one of the greatest weapons in her arsenal -- maybe the greatest -- but she's still an exceptional skater without it.
    Based on the protocol data, I would agree with Vash's judgment. Her performance history says that the math on the jumps without the 3A just doesn't add up, unless she does a Barry Bonds and suddenly starts throwing down perfectly ratified jumps with huge GOEs left and right in the winter of her career.

    The dilemma, of course, is that such a non-3A layout might maximize her chances for a podium finish, but probably takes her out of the running for gold, while a 3A-heavy layout keeps a glimmer of hope of gold alive assuming a high quality competition, but significantly increases the risk that she'll fall off the podium entirely.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    I know that's been said before, but are we sure about it? I know it's one of the greatest weapons in her arsenal -- maybe the greatest -- but she's still an exceptional skater without it.
    She certainly is but her jump GOE will never match Kims overall, she also gives up some automatic points too with her flutz, and PCS which is more or less a pecking order more than a total reflection of skating quality has Kim on top by several points or more (depending how she skates) on Mao, despite that Mao gets much higher PCS than anyone else (other than possibly Kostner). So yes for those reasons she definitely needs the triple axel to have a chance to beat a clean or almost clean Kim.

    As Vash said she WANTS to do it anyway, as evidenced by that she has continued doing it in all international competitions this year, even with no real competition (although part of that is practice for Sochi probably)

  16. #36

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Infected with the joy of skating!!
    Posts
    10,547
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    14026
    I really wish Mao had a reliable 3-3. Landing 4 triples in the SP would help her maximize the advantage she gets from the 3a. I can only imagine that they tried to get one and couldn't.

    Does anyone know which PCS category - if any - grades whether or not the skater showed all 6 types of jumps in the LP?
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I thought she still could do the triple flip-triple loop. If she really cant do one anymore then even more obvious she would need the 3 axel to even hope for gold in Sochi.

  18. #38

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    6,867
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    88512
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Based on the protocol data, I would agree with Vash's judgment. Her performance history says that the math on the jumps without the 3A just doesn't add up, unless she does a Barry Bonds and suddenly starts throwing down perfectly ratified jumps with huge GOEs left and right in the winter of her career.

    The dilemma, of course, is that such a non-3A layout might maximize her chances for a podium finish, but probably takes her out of the running for gold, while a 3A-heavy layout keeps a glimmer of hope of gold alive assuming a high quality competition, but significantly increases the risk that she'll fall off the podium entirely.
    I agreed and I don't think Mao is going for a podium finish. She is going for gold. She has a silver from 2010, IMHO, she has stayed in to get the gold medal and the odds seems to indicate that going for the 3A is the best way to do that. I also agree with those who have posted that if she drops the 3A and doesn't get the gold she will have regrets. It is a go big or go home mentality. If that's what Mao wants then that's what she should do. I suspect the writer isn't particularly competitive and he doesn't understand where Mao is coming from.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  19. #39

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Infected with the joy of skating!!
    Posts
    10,547
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    14026
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I thought she still could do the triple flip-triple loop. If she really cant do one anymore then even more obvious she would need the 3 axel to even hope for gold in Sochi.
    Maybe they were working towards 3l3l in the SP? Because if she did 3f3l, she'd have to do a 3sal or 3toe for her solo triple.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  20. #40

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    The New York Times has an article today about Mao.

    Good article. Thanks for posting.

    "At Skate America, though, Asada said self-satisfaction would trump any rivalry with Kim in Sochi. She is skating more for herself than a particular spot on the medal podium, she said. "

    I think Mao is realistic about her chances. It sounds like she wants to skate her best and let the chips fall where they may. I hope she has stellar performances (SP & LP) in Sochi, and she feels satisfied that she did her best. The gold medal would be just icing on the cake in that case (although I would be ecstatic if she wins the OGM and disappointed if she does not).

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •