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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    I will say it again..the "story" of Plushenko doing well and skating well in his home country at age 31 and after numerous physical problems-even medaling-is such a great story that it perhaps overshadows his qualities as a skater. I can well understand the enthusiasm for the story and share it to an extent. He's a great jumper. But there is more to it than jumping. I don't want to be negative about him. I just don't think that "the story" should overwhelm the quality of each skater being judged individually. If Plushy wins fair and square-good for him. If he's just a PR tool for the sport when others skater better....might be better for the sport anyway. It'll get more press. Sad but true. I'd personally rather watch paint dry, but if he's good for the sport, maybe that's a good thing. The sport needs it.
    I don't want to argue with you. BUT IF PLUSHENKO IS ONLY A JUMPER YAGUDIN IS ALSO ONLY A JUMPER. HE IS NO MORE THAN PLUSHY. Yagudin is not better in any part of the skating like Plush. There is a diffrence he is your favorite.....

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    I am NOT being negative! You are an uber fan. You cannot be objective.
    Of course you are super objective. Seriously, though there are enough ubbers on this board, most people manage it to be a skater`s fan and judge their achievements objectively. Looks rather like you have a problem with it when putting them under general suspicion of lack of objectivity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    Just because he is not my favorite does not mean I don't respect him and wish him well and totally admire his incredible will. ( BTW-There are thousands of cancer patients battling the disease who show the same will power and preserverence. They just don't get medals...) This is exactly what I am saying-the story supercedes the quality of the skating. I'm being objective. I am just saying that his story is quite possibly of more impact and beneficial to skating than his actual superiority (or lack thereof) of his skating. We are all going to have different opinions on who moves us and who we like as skaters. I believe that people who don't agree with you that he is the be and end all of skaters are always wrong-you don't allow for difference of opinion. But I AM saying that regardless of how I feel about his skating, his story could be very good for the sport. How in any rational manner can that be negative? I'm paying him a supreme compliment! So if I don't think he's the greatest thing ever on skates, I am totally wrong? Very broadminded, accepting and tolerant of you!
    I really have to laugh about your fear that the story will overshine a skater’s actual performance and may lead to kind of competitive advantage. If that be the case, there e.g would not be any discussions on Akiko Suzuki’s PC. If a skater has a “story” it basically only means that he had a serious setback in his/her career, may it be injury or personal reasons which did not allow him or her to train at full strength. I don’t see how this can be beneficial to any skater? Actually we rather see the opposite and IMHO one of the reasons why Plushenko was able to get back in that kind of shape is that all his injury problems at least started AFTER he had a stable quad and of course stable triples as it is easier to relearn jumps than having push the technical complexity even further after devastating injury break.

    Heading to Sochi a difference compared to his rivals certainly might be a bigger media attention. However, with home games Plushenko would have gotten that anyways. And this can be an advantage or the opposite of it – not every skater can handle such pressure (think e.g. of Carolina Kostner in 2006). In addition what would you have suggested Plushenko to do? Keeping his health problems secret, so that people would have started to speculate if he’d become too lazy or too old when he started training jumps from scratch?

  3. #23

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    [QUOTE=Katarzyna;4086607]I really have to laugh about your fear that the story will overshine a skater’s actual performance and may lead to kind of competitive advantage. [QUOTE]

    That is not at all what I said, and it's pretty funny you interpreted it that way. You guys won't let me compliment Plushy in any way unless I am a full-blown uber, which I cannot be. My words absolutely say nothing about a competitive advantage and everything about his story being good for the sport. If you want to read anything else into it (why bring up Yagudin for heaven's sake? He is long gone and has nothing to do with anything anymore) I can't stop you. But as it is Christmas-Merry Christmas everyone and I hope you all have a great day!

  4. #24

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    Plushenko will always be the king, whether he skates in Sochi or not (does not seem likely now). He has accomplished so much in his career; he can be proud of all those accomplishments.
    Last edited by Vash01; 12-25-2013 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #25

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    Sochi definitely seems out and his career over.

  6. #26

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    One not-so-good FS from Evgeni is not enough to convince me that he won't be well enough for either Euros or Sochi or both. His SP at Russian Nationals was superb, with a 4/3 to boot! His FS he did a lot of doubles, yet still managed an opening quad and a 3axel, not bad at all, still good enough for silver. It's between him & God whether or not his body will hold up for the rest...we shall see....

    Btw, I love reading your posts, Vash01, you're articulate, even paced, and positive, I like that.

    As for the naysayers ~ "by the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes"

  7. #27

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    ps: MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by NadineWhite View Post
    One not-so-good FS from Evgeni is not enough to convince me that he won't be well enough for either Euros or Sochi or both. His SP at Russian Nationals was superb, with a 4/3 to boot! His FS he did a lot of doubles, yet still managed an opening quad and a 3axel, not bad at all, still good enough for silver. It's between him & God whether or not his body will hold up for the rest...we shall see....

    Btw, I love reading your posts, Vash01, you're articulate, even paced, and positive, I like that.

    As for the naysayers ~ "by the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes"
    Quote Originally Posted by NadineWhite View Post
    ps: MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

    Thank you NadineWhite. Wish you a merry Christmas too.

    About Plushenko- I have watched him compete at world level since he was 15 (and earlier as Junior). In all these years I have seen him skate TWO poor performances! I don't know how many skaters can have that kind of consistency. His first poor performance was at age 17 (worlds 2000 LP) and the second at age 31- today. I would definitely give him another chance to prove himself, but now it's up to RSF and Plushenko himself, and the politics (Tarasova will pull all stops to give the spot to Kovtun without further discussion).

  9. #29

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    I'm sure because of tarasova and this instance Russia for men's will adopt the national champion automatically goes to Olympics.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Thank you NadineWhite. Wish you a merry Christmas too.

    About Plushenko- I have watched him compete at world level since he was 15 (and earlier as Junior). In all these years I have seen him skate TWO poor performances! I don't know how many skaters can have that kind of consistency. His first poor performance was at age 17 (worlds 2000 LP) and the second at age 31- today. I would definitely give him another chance to prove himself, but now it's up to RSF and Plushenko himself, and the politics (Tarasova will pull all stops to give the spot to Kovtun without further discussion).

    Yes but this isn't the same Plushenko. His body is falling apart. He may not be physically capable of pulling it together at the Olympics. I don't think its wise to send someone in hopes that they have a miracle skate.

    And if said skater is not competiting much its hard to say what they are hoping for-isn't a miracle skate.

    Kovtun is young and healthy, he's consistently put out the quads and other high tech content out there. There's the team event to consider where Russia could win gold. I don't see why its a good idea to send Plush when he hasn't demonstrated his capable of being at his old level.

    To be honest I'm afraid the man is going to seriously hurt/damage himself. And my biggest fear is always been something could happen at the Team Event.

    Plushenko's a great skater and champion-but age and injuries can get even him.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    I don't want to argue with you. BUT IF PLUSHENKO IS ONLY A JUMPER YAGUDIN IS ALSO ONLY A JUMPER. HE IS NO MORE THAN PLUSHY. Yagudin is not better in any part of the skating like Plush. There is a diffrence he is your favorite.....
    What has Yagudin got to do with it?
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  12. #32

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    To be frank I think the Russian fed would be doing Plush a favor by saying its over.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    What has Yagudin got to do with it?
    I believe she is responding to the claim by another poster that Plushenko has only jumps, and that is true of most skaters that skated in the 6.0 system. Yagudin, who is the darling of everyone on fsu was no different. I think that's the point of that post.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    I don't want to argue with you. BUT IF PLUSHENKO IS ONLY A JUMPER YAGUDIN IS ALSO ONLY A JUMPER. HE IS NO MORE THAN PLUSHY. Yagudin is not better in any part of the skating like Plush.
    That's one of the funniest things I've read today. Thanks for the laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I believe she is responding to the claim by another poster that Plushenko has only jumps, and that is true of most skaters that skated in the 6.0 system. Yagudin, who is the darling of everyone on fsu was no different. I think that's the point of that post.
    And that is (along with lala's post) a total load of crap. Yagudin's footwork was far better than Plushenko's, and not only when they were competing against each other. Yagudin's FW from 2002 is far superior to any of Plushenko's FW from 2003 onward. Both of them could have had better spins, but again, Yagudin's were and are better than Plushenko's have ever been.

    Before Yagudin left Camp Mishin for Tarasova, he was, at that point, nothing but jumps. She took a diamond in the rough and was able to "cut and polish" his skating into something/someone special. When it comes to coaching and choreography, she has a talent and ability that Mishin is sorely lacking. I used to always wonder what kind of skater she could have turned Plushenko into if he had gone to her and Yagudin stayed with Mishin.

    Oh, and just FTR, before lala goes off on one of her dumbass uber-accusations, I was never a Yagudin uber during his competitive years, and I'm not a fan of exhibition skating at all - by any skaters or teams.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    About Plushenko- I have watched him compete at world level since he was 15 (and earlier as Junior). In all these years I have seen him skate TWO poor performances! I don't know how many skaters can have that kind of consistency. His first poor performance was at age 17 (worlds 2000 LP) and the second at age 31- today. I would definitely give him another chance to prove himself, but now it's up to RSF and Plushenko himself, and the politics (Tarasova will pull all stops to give the spot to Kovtun without further discussion).
    I hate how TAT politicked Kovtun in the Team last year, I hate how she politicks PCS he totally doesn't deserve instead of focusing on possibly producing the same transformation with Kovtun as she did with Yagudin in the past. But even with only very few badly skated events in his whole career Plushenko has lost in fair square at Nats and unlike Kovtun he didn't produce any results at high level events. - Certainly because he was not ready yet earlier this season. But if I were RF I'd rather rely on a skater who is healthy and in shape now, than on a skater who MIGHT be ready later on. You still have to give credit to Plushenko - I didn`t believe he would ever jump quads again and he might still have a great pro career ahead.

    And Merry Christmas to you from my side as well!

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    Kovtun is no Yagudin, that's for sure, no matter how much Tarasova tries to convince others. Yagudin was one of the most consistent jumpers. He did develop his artistry with Tarasova, but he already had the right jump technique which he learned from Mishin.

  17. #37
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    Wow, a lot of Tarasova hatred from the Mishin/Plushenko devotees. Not that it would come as a surprise though.

    Politicking high PCS for Kovtun is downright disgusting but politicking even higher PCS for Plushenko's empty programs is perfectly legitimate, I suppose.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Politicking high PCS for Kovtun is downright disgusting but politicking even higher PCS for Plushenko's empty programs is perfectly legitimate, I suppose.
    Haters gonna hate

    Seriously though, I feel Kovtun's PCS to be much more in line than Plushenko's. He listens to and expresses the music with his body, uses more body positions and skates with much better purpose / choreography. So if both were awarded with realistic PCS instead of inflated ones, Kovtun would just have won with a bigger margin anyway.

    Interesting about the Mishin and Tarasova rivalry. To think, if another Mishin student Gachinski had just edged Kovtun out of Euros and Worlds last season, the situation would be much more containable now.

  19. #39

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    Final results - Nationals in Sochi: http://fsrussia.ru/upl/results/1314/...1314/index.htm

    LADIES
    1 Аделина СОТНИКОВА Sotnikova МОС 212.77 1 2
    2 Юлия ЛИПНИЦКАЯ Lipnitskaia М/Е 210.81 2 1
    3 Елена РАДИОНОВА Radionova МОС 202.01 3 3

    4 Александра ПРОКЛОВА Proklova МОС 195.39 5 4
    5 Алёна ЛЕОНОВА Leonova М/С 187.48 4 7
    6 Серафима САХАНОВИЧ Sakhanovich СПБ 183.58 7 6
    7 Евгения МЕДВЕДЕВА Medvedeva МОС 181.86 8 8
    8 Анна ПОГОРИЛАЯ Pogorilaya МОС 180.88 10 5
    9 Николь ГОСВИЯНИ Gosviani СПБ 176.54 6 10
    10 Елизавета ТУКТАМЫШЕВА Tukatamysheva С/Г 175.59 9 9
    11 Мария АРТЕМЬЕВА Artemieva СПБ 155.23 11 14
    12 Софья БИРЮКОВА Biryukova МОС 150.15 15 12
    13 Диана ПЕРВУШКИНА Pervushina ТОЛ 149.14 16 13
    14 Алсу КАЮМОВА Kaiumova МОС 144.83 17 11
    15 Диана ШАМСУТДИНОВА Shamsutdinova ИЖЕ 144.40 14 15
    16 Полина АГАФОНОВА Agafonova СПБ 144.32 12 17
    17 Алина МАКСИМОВА Maksimova МОС 143.59 13 16
    18 Анна ШЕРШАК Shershak МОС 130.62 18 18

    PAIRS
    1 Ксения СТОЛБОВА / Фёдор КЛИМОВ Stolbova/Klimov С/М 214.47 1 2
    2 Вера БАЗАРОВА / Юрий ЛАРИОНОВ Bazarova/Larionov С/М 214.02 2 1
    3 Мария ВЫГАЛОВА / Егор ЗАКРОЕВ Vigalova/Zakroev ПРМ 182.35 4 3

    4 Юлия АНТИПОВА / Нодари МАИСУРАДЗЕ Antipova/Maisuradze МОС 174.97 5 7
    5 Василиса ДАВАНКОВА / Андрей ДЕПУТАТ Davankova/Deputat МОС 173.09 6 6
    6 Лина ФЁДОРОВА / Максим МИРОШКИН Fedorova/Miroshkin МОС 172.80 9 4
    7 Катарина ГЕРБОЛЬДТ / Александр ЭНБЕРТ Gerboldt/Enbert СПБ 172.37 7 5
    8 Евгения ТАРАСОВА / Владимир МОРОЗОВ Tarasova/Morozov МОС 169.06 3 10
    9 Кристина АСТАХОВА / Максим КУРДЮКОВ Astakhova/Kurdyukov МОС 159.62 8 8
    10 Анастасия ГУБАНОВА / Алексей СИНЦОВ Gubanova/Sincov ПРМ 153.28 10 9

    ICE DANCE
    1 Екатерина БОБРОВА / Дмитрий СОЛОВЬЕВ Bobrova/Soloviev МОС 179.90 1 1
    2 Елена ИЛЬИНЫХ / Никита КАЦАЛАПОВ Ilinykh/Katsalapov МОС 168.01 2 2
    3 Виктория СИНИЦИНА / Руслан ЖИГАНШИН МОС Sinitsina/Zhiganshin 165.60 3 3

    4 Екатерина РЯЗАНОВА / Илья ТКАЧЕНКО Riazanova/Tkachenko МОБ 163.99 4 4
    5 Ксения МОНЬКО / Кирилл ХАЛЯВИН Monko/Khaliavin МОС 155.59 5 6
    6 Александра СТЕПАНОВА / Иван БУКИН Stepanova/Bukin МОС 151.80 6 5
    7 Валерия ЗЕНКОВА / Валерий СИНИЦИН Zenkova/Sinitsin МОС 133.87 7 8
    8 Екатерина ПУШКАШ / Джонатан ГУРЕЙРО Pushkash/Guerreiro МОС 133.62 8 7
    9 Анжелика КАНИВЕЦ / Алексей ЧИЖОВ Kanivets/Tchizhov СВЕ 81.88 9 9
    10 Светлана ХОМЯКОВА / Никита ШУБО-ЯБЛОНСКИЙ Khomiakova/Shubo-Jablonski КИР 81.40 10 10

    MEN
    1 Максим КОВТУН Kovtun М/Е 267.13 2 1
    2 Евгений ПЛЮЩЕНКО Plushenko СПБ 261.37 1 2
    3 Сергей ВОРОНОВ Voronov МОС 249.44 3 3

    4 Константин МЕНЬШОВ Menshov СПБ 230.13 10 4
    5 Адьян ПИТКЕЕВ Pitkeev МОС 224.25 4 6
    6 Артур ГАЧИНСКИЙ Gachinski СПБ 224.17 12 5
    7 Жан БУШ Bush М/Ч 217.40 5 8
    8 Александр ПЕТРОВ Petrov СПБ 216.47 7 7
    9 Артур ДМИТРИЕВ Dmitriev МОС 202.03 8 11
    10 Мурад КУРБАНОВ Kurbanov МОС 199.86 14 9
    11 Сергей БОРОДУЛИН S. Borodulin МОС 197.31 13 10
    12 Гордей ГОРШКОВ Gorshkov СПБ 196.72 9 14
    13 Александр САМАРИН Samarin МОС 193.11 16 12
    14 Андрей ЛАЗУКИН Lazukin СПБ 186.25 18 13
    15 Морис КВИТЕЛАШВИЛИ Kvitelashvili МОС 184.98 11 16
    16 Владислав СЕЗГАНОВ Sezganov СПБ 182.75 17 15
    17 Константин МИЛЮКОВ Milyukov КАЗ 165.58 15 17
    WD Михаил КОЛЯДА Kolyada СПБ (boot lace problem during FS that he couldn't fix in time )
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-26-2013 at 06:06 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Kovtun is no Yagudin, that's for sure, no matter how much Tarasova tries to convince others. Yagudin was one of the most consistent jumpers. He did develop his artistry with Tarasova, but he already had the right jump technique which he learned from Mishin.
    Kovtun is no Yagudin, he's Kovtun. He just beat both Yagudin and Plushenko at Russian National. And how he did at worlds last year is not a very good reference for his future performance. As long as he has the quality, he's just going to reform year by year very quickly like lots of young promising stars. He's going uphill, while Plushenko and some other more senior skaters, they are just going downhill year by year, that's the reality. Look how Yuzuru Hanyu did at his first senior year and where he is now. But I fully understand some of Plushenko fans' emotions right now, so keep attacking him.
    Last edited by unicorn; 12-26-2013 at 06:00 PM.

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