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  1. #161

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    I know it's unpopular opinion, but for me BK Riverdance look like one of the most difficult if we are.talking about steps, speed, transitions.
    In 2002 they were put on 4 place from first CD, which they skated great. So maybe it's better they fall in FD.

    As for Carmen I saw all if them in GPF and DW didn't show there best, but won over Carmen.
    At.WCh VM show there best FD in that season, but lose.
    This season DW didn't skate clean and didn't.show.nothing special, but won. I have one explanation - money and IMG.
    Why DW never try something risky? Maybe because of there conditions,.which us.sad.
    But I am in piece with DW golds.and World.records. People have champions they.deserve. Ugly.and Woody

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Why do people keep saying Carmen was never skated to it's full potential? The performance at Worlds was amazing and it still lost. Even if they had skated Carmen to this potential people keep saying, they still would have lost the world title due to the hole they were in from the SD. Carmen should have won at the least the FD portion with the performance they gave and it didn't even achieve that.

    I actually came here to ask something but I get so freaking annoyed every time I hear Carmen wasn't skated to it's full potential.
    I agree! And please do ask your question!

  3. #163
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    I know this is Off-Topic at this moment, but looking back at your videos Ice Princess, I think V/M were extremely smart to use choreography similar to the style of Mahler because it shows how much speed and power V/M have improved in the last quad and they want to show that to the judges. The reason why Mahler and Seasons clash why Seasons isn't a Mahler 2.0 is basically because of speed.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Why do people keep saying Carmen was never skated to it's full potential? The performance at Worlds was amazing and it still lost. Even if they had skated Carmen to this potential people keep saying, they still would have lost the world title due to the hole they were in from the SD. Carmen should have won at the least the FD portion with the performance they gave and it didn't even achieve that.

    I actually came here to ask something but I get so freaking annoyed every time I hear Carmen wasn't skated to it's full potential.
    I agree and ask your question
    Last edited by *Ice Princess*; 12-29-2013 at 07:43 PM.

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I know it's unpopular opinion, but for me BK Riverdance look like one of the most difficult if we are.talking about steps, speed, transitions.
    In 2002 they were put on 4 place from first CD, which they skated great. So maybe it's better they fall in FD.
    There are people today who say Yagudins trademark footwork looks difficult.

    As for 2002 - all the teams above in CD were better than B&K. I blame Morozov for their OD & FD that year...

    As for who is more special and new - this is personal opinion and I dont even want to go there. To me Davis&White seem much more confident with their elements and programs. One can say you sure can be more confident and comfortable with elements you are reusing and readapting. But the question is - if the system does not penalize but endorses clean & confident performances with 10 - who is the overall best competitor?
    As of March 2013 - no longer scared of TAHbKA or Andrey aka Pushkin

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by parapluies View Post
    I know this is Off-Topic at this moment, but looking back at your videos Ice Princess, I think V/M were extremely smart to use choreography similar to the style of Mahler because it shows how much speed and power V/M have improved in the last quad and they want to show that to the judges. The reason why Mahler and Seasons clash why Seasons isn't a Mahler 2.0 is basically because of speed.
    Me too, I think that was a good "strategy" .
    Stylistically they are similar, but talking about choreography are very different. Yes, the thing you notice right away is the speed that has increased exponentially since 2010! They have improved a lot of things and it's amazing! I like to see how to every competition I discover new details or how much they grow every race, month after month. I can't wait to see them again at Nationals!! *-*
    I hope in a live stream out of Canada!

  7. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy123 View Post
    I agree! And please do ask your question!
    It wasn't really a question more just random rambling. In regards to the team event I kind of hope WP can still be a part of it. Since DW will do both events I can see why SC (and probably Marina too) would want VM to do both events as well. But since I think DW will slotted to number position either way, I don't think it'll hurt if WP skated one portion of the event. But if it's Tessa and Scott that would rather go for it then more power to them.

    The second thing I was going to say was for rvi5. I hope you're able to watch "Road to Sochi" and if you don't mind and have the time save it on YT pretty please.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    It wasn't really a question more just random rambling. In regards to the team event I kind of hope WP can still be a part of it. Since DW will do both events I can see why SC (and probably Marina too) would want VM to do both events as well. But since I think DW will slotted to number position either way, I don't think it'll hurt if WP skated one portion of the event. But if it's Tessa and Scott that would rather go for it then more power to them.

    The second thing I was going to say was for rvi5. I hope you're able to watch "Road to Sochi" and if you don't mind and have the time save it on YT pretty please.
    I guess they would want to do both sections to beat D/W at least once before the "real" ice dance competition, kind of like 4CC before Worlds. It's scary to think that what happens in the team event will probably have a huge effect on how the dance portion will be perceived/scored.

  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    There are people today who say Yagudins trademark footwork looks difficult.

    As for 2002 - all the teams above in CD were better than B&K. I blame Morozov for their OD & FD that year...

    As for who is more special and new - this is personal opinion and I dont even want to go there. To me Davis&White seem much more confident with their elements and programs. One can say you sure can be more confident and comfortable with elements you are reusing and readapting. But the question is - if the system does not penalize but endorses clean & confident performances with 10 - who is the overall best competitor?
    Judges agree with me, because BK won FD over AP in 1998. And after.this ISU did FD more important in overall results.
    As for.2002 BK quick step were great, but they wasn't reworded for it. And FP-M fall on step sequence, but got bronze. So all was decided before OG.
    If skaters must be reworded for confidence maybe you are right. But I don't think new or interesting is personal taste. And you answer about why DW are.so confident - nothing new, no risk. Even this season SD us.2012 FD.

    Shayii, VM will doing both dances. Maybe because WP will lose Russian team. BS will miss ECh so I think they will doing 2.dances for.Russia.
    But I don't know is this smart for.CM to compete. Nationals.and doing.two dances for.team.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    V&M took a risk last season with their FD but couldn't skate it to the full potential. Was it because of tessa's condition or because their program was the most demanding - I dont know. That program skated clean would have them World Champions over flawless Davis&White's Notre Dame de Paris.
    They skated 'Carmen' clean at Worlds. They had the same base value in their technical score as Meryl and Charlie - no any lost levels, no any mistakes. And they didn't even win the FD, although it was clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    To me Davis&White seem much more confident with their elements and programs.
    They were not more confident with their elements at the GP Final - they had mistakes in twizzles both in SD and FD, in the FD curve lift Meryl landed on Charlie's back sideways with a danger of falling (and they still got perfect GOE for it), the combination lift was not perfect either -especially the exit looked heavier than usual (and, again, they got close to perfect GOE with many +3s). + Their overall skating and speed in the FD was not as good as at the previous competitions (especially the diagonal step sequence looked heavier than at other times - probably because Charlie was more exhausted than usual). Whereas Tessa and Scott didn't have any mistakes or obvious imperfections in their elements and overall skating. If anything, the rotation in their SD lift could be faster, and also the FD second rotational lift could be even better, but, unlike with Meryl and Charlie, GOE was taken off accordingly.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    There are people today who say Yagudins trademark footwork looks difficult.

    As for 2002 - all the teams above in CD were better than B&K. I blame Morozov for their OD & FD that year...

    As for who is more special and new - this is personal opinion and I dont even want to go there. To me Davis&White seem much more confident with their elements and programs. One can say you sure can be more confident and comfortable with elements you are reusing and readapting. But the question is - if the system does not penalize but endorses clean & confident performances with 10 - who is the overall best competitor?
    Correct me if I am wrong, I feel what you've been trying to say in your posts is that when Canadian skaters win with mistakes, it's the result of Skate Canada politicking for them but when Canadians lose competitions or programs skating cleanly - such as Virtue/Moir at this year's GPF -, it's not politicking by other federations at all, it's just that other skaters were much stronger and confident on their reused and readapted elements. It doesn't make much sense to me that the Skate Canada officials are using their power to help their skaters win competitions or programs with flawed skates but doing nothing to influence the judging for cases when their skaters have clean performances.

  12. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    They skated 'Carmen' clean at Worlds. They had the same base value in their technical score as Meryl and Charlie - no any lost levels, no any mistakes. And they didn't even win the FD, although it was clean.

    They were not more confident with their elements at the GP Final - they had mistakes in twizzles both in SD and FD, in the FD curve lift Meryl landed on Charlie's back sideways with a danger of falling (and they still got perfect GOE for it), the combination lift was not perfect either -especially the exit looked heavier than usual (and, again, they got close to perfect GOE with many +3s). + Their overall skating and speed in the FD was not as good as at the previous competitions (especially the diagonal step sequence looked heavier than at other times - probably because Charlie was more exhausted than usual). Whereas Tessa and Scott didn't have any mistakes or obvious imperfections in their elements and overall skating. If anything, the rotation in their SD lift could be faster, and also the FD second rotational lift could be even better, but, unlike with Meryl and Charlie, GOE was taken off accordingly.
    Thanks
    My point is - if two team are close in judging opinion, any of them could win. But its not this case anymore.
    Ofcouse Meryl and Charlie will skate much better, maybe perfect on there own stadarts at OG, but in GPF some of there marks were questionable.
    But its good thing - VM never got questionable marks in in terms of too high.

    I read, that PB will gp to the WCh. when before i read they will doing shows after OG. Did this mean DW will not go to WCh too?

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Why do people keep saying Carmen was never skated to it's full potential? The performance at Worlds was amazing and it still lost. Even if they had skated Carmen to this potential people keep saying, they still would have lost the world title due to the hole they were in from the SD. Carmen should have won at the least the FD portion with the performance they gave and it didn't even achieve that.

    I actually came here to ask something but I get so freaking annoyed every time I hear Carmen wasn't skated to it's full potential.
    My sentiments exactly! Carmen was skated full out brilliantly to it's full potential and more.

  14. #174
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    Kosjenko, the problem in Nagano was that the French federation head, Didier, told anyone who would listen that it had been pre-arranged for BK to be fifth after the CDs so that they couldn't move up to third after the OD and FD, and of course that was 'communicated' to BK. In 2002, they weren't 'expected' to medal but mistakes were made by one of the teams ahead of them which 'might' have let them slip into third, but I never believed it would have happened regardless of the slip at the end of the program.

    Re Frank Carroll, I have no idea what he said but since his female skaters always beat Canadian women (not very hard), I don't know what his gripe would be - he found SC difficult to deal with maybe - talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Why would he even be talking to them - not playing ball with him perhaps?

    Re Chan, he is a once in a lifetime skater with skills that are out of this world - he wasn't even on SC's horizon when the ISU was designing the CoP. I also think you're unfair to him - he didn't get any special treatment in Vancouver, just a lot of grief about his lack of a quad. Chan's subsequent success was as much about a weak bunch of challengers as it was about his winning with falls. Chan learned what he needed to win, his competitors didn't - until very recently. We are very unlikely to see skaters the calibre of either Chan or VM for a very long time. It's a pity they aren't recognized for their unique strengths instead of always being used to suggest it's all SC's doing.

    I'm not suggesting that SC - like all federations - isn't political to some extent, they have to be to keep an eye out for their skaters, but political to the extent that they can control whether a Canadian is going to win gold or even medal - no way - not even close.

    Whether we like it or not, all federations turn a blind eye when a judge favours the skaters from their nation. We all accept that it happens even if we no longer have proof and just hope that if everyone does it then they cancel each other out. I've long thought the simplest solution to this problem would be an automatic abstention from voting when their skater is on the ice. That wouldn't help the block judging problem though because that's a pre-arranged agreement between countries.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    They skated 'Carmen' clean at Worlds. They had the same base value in their technical score as Meryl and Charlie - no any lost levels, no any mistakes. And they didn't even win the FD, although it was clean.

    They were not more confident with their elements at the GP Final - they had mistakes in twizzles both in SD and FD, in the FD curve lift Meryl landed on Charlie's back sideways with a danger of falling (and they still got perfect GOE for it), the combination lift was not perfect either -especially the exit looked heavier than usual (and, again, they got close to perfect GOE with many +3s). + Their overall skating and speed in the FD was not as good as at the previous competitions (especially the diagonal step sequence looked heavier than at other times - probably because Charlie was more exhausted than usual). Whereas Tessa and Scott didn't have any mistakes or obvious imperfections in their elements and overall skating. If anything, the rotation in their SD lift could be faster, and also the FD second rotational lift could be even better, but, unlike with Meryl and Charlie, GOE was taken off accordingly.
    I wish the judges would just do their jobs properly.............

  16. #176

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    Frank Carroll made his "opinion" known about his male skater D. Ten who came second to Chan last year. Apparently there was quite a jump in Ten's PCS between his short and his free and he wondered why that was and how it was that Chan still managed to win in spite of making mistakes. It was in that context that he alluded to the "power" of the Canadian skating federation to get wins for Chan when it should have been his skater who won. There was lots of chat about this in the World's threads.

    Just as I believe that Patrick is a once-in-a-lifetime skater, so too so I believe it of Virtue and Moir. They are truly the epitome of what ice dance is and has been about. I have grown weary of teams winning because they
    1) are fast, fast, fast
    2) are so fast that their mistakes are sometimes missed if you blink your eye
    3) don't get deducted for mistakes appropriately when other teams make less of a mistake and get dinged
    4) get rewarded for doing elements that tend to be simple, do them quickly, skate with shallow edges,
    5) have one partner do more of the work than the other because partner #1 isn't strong enough to get themselves into position. Lifts tend to look ugly in too many of the spots as they get to their position.
    6) perform in the same manner regardless of the actual music being played.

    I wonder how long it will take before the pendulum swings back to rewarding actual ice dancing and using/applying COP criteria correctly
    Crazy about sports!

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Frank Carroll made his "opinion" known about his male skater D. Ten who came second to Chan last year. Apparently there was quite a jump in Ten's PCS between his short and his free and he wondered why that was and how it was that Chan still managed to win in spite of making mistakes. It was in that context that he alluded to the "power" of the Canadian skating federation to get wins for Chan when it should have been his skater who won. There was lots of chat about this in the World's threads.
    Well quite frankly, Frank should know better. I realize that he's politicking for his skater and probably his coach's nose is out of joint, but that argument suggests to me that he either forgot how good Chan's SP was or he seriously doesn't understand CoP.
    I agree completely about VM.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Frank Carroll made his "opinion" known about his male skater D. Ten who came second to Chan last year. Apparently there was quite a jump in Ten's PCS between his short and his free and he wondered why that was and how it was that Chan still managed to win in spite of making mistakes. It was in that context that he alluded to the "power" of the Canadian skating federation to get wins for Chan when it should have been his skater who won. There was lots of chat about this in the World's threads.

    Just as I believe that Patrick is a once-in-a-lifetime skater, so too so I believe it of Virtue and Moir. They are truly the epitome of what ice dance is and has been about. I have grown weary of teams winning because they
    1) are fast, fast, fast
    2) are so fast that their mistakes are sometimes missed if you blink your eye
    3) don't get deducted for mistakes appropriately when other teams make less of a mistake and get dinged
    4) get rewarded for doing elements that tend to be simple, do them quickly, skate with shallow edges,
    5) have one partner do more of the work than the other because partner #1 isn't strong enough to get themselves into position. Lifts tend to look ugly in too many of the spots as they get to their position.
    6) perform in the same manner regardless of the actual music being played.

    I wonder how long it will take before the pendulum swings back to rewarding actual ice dancing and using/applying COP criteria correctly
    Exactly.

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    Road to the Olympics - Tessa & Scott portion of the video. I will post Patrick Chan's portion in his thread soon.
    Last edited by rvi5; 12-30-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  20. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    Road to Sochi - Tessa & Scott portion of the video. I will post Patrick Chan's portion in his thread soon.
    Thank you so very much!

    ETA: Oh I think the interview footage they used we've definitely seen before right? I had imagined an actually like sit down interview or something.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

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