View Poll Results: Who were the better pair: Mishkutenok & Dmitriev or Kazakova & Dmitriev?

Voters
70. You may not vote on this poll
  • Natalia Mishkutenok & Artur Dmitriev

    65 92.86%
  • Oksana Kazakova & Artur Dmitriev

    4 5.71%
  • Don't Know

    1 1.43%
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 77
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,338
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    46638
    M&D's Technical Program from the 1992 World Professional Championships. The music is Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini by Sergei Rachmaninov

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    600
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by canbelto View Post
    Time to get on my soapbox:

    I HATED the way Moskvina/Dmitriev treated Natalia. I remember a painful puff piece where they criticized her weight, and Artur said he wanted a new partner, and Natalia was just crying and I felt terrible for her. This wasn't a one-time incident: they called her "fat," "lazy," "moody," etc. and never gave her credit for the fact that during important competitions she pulled it together and she was NOT FAT. I adored her flexibility, her gracious demeanor, and well, just everything about her.

    I saw recent photos of her -- she's gorgeous still, and thin. Her daughter is adorable. Artur otoh ... he hasn't kept in shape at all.

    They were still my favorite pair of all time and I loved Natalia.

    This is terrible to hear. Do you think that is why she quit early. She was sick of being belittled and picked on by those two bullies.

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    43732
    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    This is terrible to hear. Do you think that is why she quit early. She was sick of being belittled and picked on by those two bullies.
    Natalia and Artur had some problems, but I have no knowledge of Moskvina belittling her. Artur had to be concerned about any weight gain by Natalia. She was not as tiny as many other pairs skaters and with the weight gain the lifts became more difficult for him. He was not diplomatic about it though and he did say things in public, which was not nice. However, there are two sides to any relationship and Artur and Tamara were not the bullies you are making them out to be. In preparation for the 94 Olympics Natalia did lose some weight and it helped their pairs skating. The good thing in all this is they did not split just because they had problems. Eventually Natalia decided not to go to a third Olympics because -from what I read- she was tired of competing and wanted to move on with her life, like having a family.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hula-hooping with Michelle Obama
    Posts
    3,789
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    18431
    ^^Their story was sad. I saw a fluff piece (don't know if it is the same one as mentioned in previous post) where Natalia was in love with Artur but he got someone else pregnant and married her. It happened between Albertville and Lillehammer. I don't know if they ever had a romantic relationship or if her feelings were just never reciprocated, but that had to be horrible for her. And I remember Artur and Tamara discussing the situation and trying to decide how and when they would tell Natalia that Artur was getting married and having a baby. If she was "moody" this might have explained it.
    The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are--Joseph Campbell

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    nj/ny
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    According to Artur he waited until they won the gold medal to tell her. He told her on the bus back to the Olympic village. Even if Natalia was not Gordeeva tiny Artur should not have publicly complained about Natalia's weight. Natalia is about the size of Tessa today.

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Age
    29
    Posts
    4,889
    vCash
    1670
    Rep Power
    3283
    Quote Originally Posted by canbelto View Post
    According to Artur he waited until they won the gold medal to tell her. He told her on the bus back to the Olympic village. Even if Natalia was not Gordeeva tiny Artur should not have publicly complained about Natalia's weight. Natalia is about the size of Tessa today.
    May be, but Tessa is an Ice dancer and Natalia is in Pairs, elements like triple twist are harder on the male partner than ice dance elements. As a result you can see smaller woman competing in pairs and slightly taller and slightly more massive woman in ice dancing.

    Nevertheless I am a huge fan M&D and still get chills when watching them.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    43732
    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    May be, but Tessa is an Ice dancer and Natalia is in Pairs, elements like triple twist are harder on the male partner than ice dance elements. As a result you can see smaller woman competing in pairs and slightly taller and slightly more massive woman in ice dancing.

    Nevertheless I am a huge fan M&D and still get chills when watching them.
    Exactly. Pairs lifts are very demanding on the man. Any weight gain makes it harder. When the female partner is not as light as an average pairs skater, it can make a big difference. Artur had some back problems, I believe due to the lifts. Later he selected a smaller partner- Oksana Kazakova. In dance the man does not have to lift the lady over his head the way he has to in pairs.

    Part of M&D's charm was that Natalia was not as tiny as other pairs ladies, but she was so flexible and so unique in her movements and expression, and Artur had such passion and presence that it made M&D a very special pair, different from any that preceded them.

  8. #28
    Blergh
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,275
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    16981
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Part of M&D's charm was that Natalia was not as tiny as other pairs ladies, but she was so flexible and so unique in her movements and expression, and Artur had such passion and presence that it made M&D a very special pair, different from any that preceded them.
    Or any that came after. They may not have been the most technically-correct pairs team, but I believe they are the most distinctive pairs team in history.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    541
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I recall commentators mentioning how heavily Artus smoked as a young man and competitor, and what an effort (naturally) it was for him to stop (or taper at least) his smoking in order to get in appropriate shape for the competitive season; especially the 1994 comeback.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Greater Boston, MA
    Posts
    444
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    So it's not like Artur really had so much over Natalia in terms of fitness as an athlete. She struggled with her weight; he struggled with smoking. Maybe those lifts would have been easier if he'd had better stamina and conditioning.

    I definitely felt Artur & Tamara were too hard on Natalia--just not very nice to her. I mean, first there was the thing of Artur concealing his marriage, then there were the public comments about her weight later on. Of course, if Natalia was really in love with Artur, that may have created a lot of difficulty in the day-to-day training. But I've always wondered if that was even true. Wasn't Natalia dating Alexei Urmanov during that time period? At any rate, everyone has moods, I just have always questioned this portrayal of Natalia as being "difficult," any more so than many creative/high-powered individuals. It could have been as simple as Artur & Tamara just got along better, and Natalia became the odd man out.

  11. #31

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    43732
    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    So it's not like Artur really had so much over Natalia in terms of fitness as an athlete. She struggled with her weight; he struggled with smoking. Maybe those lifts would have been easier if he'd had better stamina and conditioning.

    I definitely felt Artur & Tamara were too hard on Natalia--just not very nice to her. I mean, first there was the thing of Artur concealing his marriage, then there were the public comments about her weight later on. Of course, if Natalia was really in love with Artur, that may have created a lot of difficulty in the day-to-day training. But I've always wondered if that was even true. Wasn't Natalia dating Alexei Urmanov during that time period? At any rate, everyone has moods, I just have always questioned this portrayal of Natalia as being "difficult," any more so than many creative/high-powered individuals. It could have been as simple as Artur & Tamara just got along better, and Natalia became the odd man out.
    In 1992 Natalia was dating Urmanov but that must have ended pretty soon because we didn't hear about it after that (definitely not around the 94 Olys). In any pair we are dealing with two individuals and two personalities. No matter what we see on the ice, there can be problems off the ice, like in any relationship, even a purely professional one. To prepare for the 94 Olys Natalia lost weight and Artur stopped smoking so they both showed their commitment by sacrificing something for a common goal. That's what makes a successful team.

    Your last sentence may have been the most accurate. It seems Tamara and Artur always got along very well, even when he skated with Oksana. It was that bond that may have made his partnerships so successful, but clearly Oksana's personality did not get in the way. IMO Oksana was more extroverted than Natalia, and that may have suited Artur better. There may have been a personality conflict when he was skating with Natalia. I think she was a shy and sensitive person and Artur may not have been that sensitive, but when they skated together, they seemed like such a perfect fit.

    In one fluff I remember Tamara saying that after winning the 92 OGM Natalia felt lost, like what do I now? It happens to many after they achieve their biggest goal. They don't know what to live for, and it showed in their conflict when they skated as pros. They were not as magical as they were in 91 & 92. When they came back though (in 94) I thought they were better than ever.

    M&D was a magical pair that comes along once in several decades.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Tamara and Artur definitely seemed like they had a perfect coach and student bond, and that their personalities and ambitions were so much alike. It probably takes a certain peresonality to be in the midst of that 3 way relationship of coach, skater, and skater, and not feel bothered by being the odd duck in a way. Oksana did seem more extroverted, carefree, and easy going than Natalia, so that situation was probably easier for her to slide by and not be bothered with than it was for Natalia who always seemed a more emotional and sensitive person to me. Oksana was probably thrilled to even be brought in the situation, and since she was not a champion caliber pairs skater when she was first teamed with Artur both Tamara and Artur probably gave her alot of special care at first (they definitely did as they even spoke about it often), and that probably helped too.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    nj/ny
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think Natalia's not being tiny worked in M&D's favor because what they lacked a bit in throws and lifts they made up for in creative spirals and spins. I love their variations on the death spiral. Just so creative and different from what pairs were doing back in the day.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by canbelto View Post
    I think Natalia's not being tiny worked in M&D's favor because what they lacked a bit in throws and lifts they made up for in creative spirals and spins. I love their variations on the death spiral. Just so creative and different from what pairs were doing back in the day.
    I agree, and they still had strong throws and lifts that were needed inspite of her not being tiny. Their throws were generaly excellent and very consistent, not huge, but very well done. Paul & Barb complained on CBC their lifts were too simple, but very well done, but I didnt find their lifts simple at all. Maybe compared to say Brasseur & Eisler they werent as challenging (and they were always biased so probably exagerrated this as a way to build up B&E in comparision to them), but compared to most teams they werent easy, and always very original, like all their moves.

  15. #35

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    wuzrobbing ice dance
    Posts
    2,603
    vCash
    806
    Rep Power
    5197
    Thank you so much for starting this thread! I had only ever seen M/D's LP from Lillehammer, but now I have all these gems right here to enjoy!

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    nj/ny
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Natalia had excellent basic skating skills too. Deep edges, excellent spins, ability to hold form while jumping/twisting. I loved her death spiral -- maybe the best ever. Glad to hear she's a pretty successful coach.
    I think Artur's form sometimes lagged -- he was sloppier. But he had energy and passion. It was a great if odd combo.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    600
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I thought Miskutienok & Dmitriev were the more strong in artistic of the two, while Kazahkova & Dmitriev were the more strong in technical. So combine the two it makes them about equal.

  18. #38

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Petaluma, CA
    Posts
    5,502
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4390
    Quote Originally Posted by unchat123 View Post
    Here's a clip of Natalia's daughter, Natasha. I guess the talent runs in the family!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRrFEcpoZuc
    Holy Skate! That apple did not fall far from the tree. She is amazing.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    95
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    I thought Miskutienok & Dmitriev were the more strong in artistic of the two, while Kazahkova & Dmitriev were the more strong in technical. So combine the two it makes them about equal.
    Interesting...in what way were K/D more strong on the technical side?

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    nj/ny
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Disagree that K/D were stronger technically. Oksana had more consistency on her SBS jumps. But in terms of basic skating skills, Natalia was by far the stronger skater -- she had deeper edges, faster, more centered spins, better form, was able to generate speed. Just look at the difference in their death spirals or SBS spins.

    This is an analogy that might get me in trouble but Oksana reminds me of Meryl Davis -- small, light, hard-working, but not inherently an interesting skater. Natalia reminds me more of Tessa Virtue -- larger, with a more "troublesome" build, more inconsistent, but a great basic skater.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •