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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    Wow at some V/M ubers accusing us of downplaying D/W's twizzle error, because you know, it's not like some of them wanted to ignore Tessa's blatant mistake in the SD at worlds, or refer to it as a "minor error". I don't know why I go in there. V/M received a WR SD score before D/W skated, the highest SD of their career, they're just .07 behind, but they're not happy. Sometimes I think that it's more about D/W losing than it is about V/M winning. No matter the score they receive, it's too high, if V/M are in first, the difference is never big enough.

    I was surprised to see D/W in first, it clearly wasn't their best performance. I thought they would lose a level on their twizzles because Meryl stopped twizzling (is that a word?) before Charlie on the first set. I have said I have a slight preference for V/M's SD this season, and I was thrilled to see them skate it as well as they did because it's a great dance. It seems a bit ironic to me that the people who are their most die hard ubers are the ones saying that their career is over.
    ITA with all of this. I watched both SD's and I was really am surprised that M/C were not in second. I like V/M's SD more than D/W as well. I think this is not a good thing for Meryl and Charlie because it's making me even more nervous for the OG. V/M ubers...whenever Tessa or Scott make a mistake, they believe that it shouldn't affect their scores. They have no room to talk. I'm going to be relieved when both teams retire as well and I'll definitely stop watching ice dance...I didn't care for it before B/A and B/K with good reason. The fans of this discipline are just really rabid, hypocritical and negative and there's too much negativity in my real life for me to care about the Internet.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by semogal View Post
    Guess I am in the minority but I like the change to the DF rotational lift. It never fails to give me goosebumps!! And I have always thought the previous lift with Meryl's leg across Charlie's thighs looked awkward. They have tweeked the end of their program in several places, no more stopping to pose at the change back to Dance All Night for example, so it was a bit rough with only a few weeks of training. I expect them to tweek it some more before we see it at Nationals and it will be more seamless I am sure.

    I really like V/M's music for the 1st and last section. They lose me in the middle. Like last year's polka, the finnstep just seems thrown in there and interrupts the flow of the dance for me. They execute it very well though. One of the advantages that Meryl and Charlie have is that their music blends and stays in character throughout.
    I also expect the SD just needs some polishing, to more smoothly incorporate the changes they've made. I like this program a lot better now than I did when we first saw it at SLC in September. I also agree that the Finnstep fits really nicely into the overall program. I suspect this might be part of the reason for their high PSC marks. I like the choreography at the beginning of VM's short, but starting with their Finnstep, they kind of lose me. It's not awful, but I do think the interesting bits of this program are all at the beginning. I have just the opposite reaction to MC's program--I feel like it's kind of okay at the beginning, but by the end, I'm always grinning like a loon. And that may be helping them--ending the program with a strong impression.

    I love the DF lift, but I also love seeing MC develop new moves. However, if they know they can get a big boost in their scores from going back to the DF lift, well, I can hardly fault them for that.

    If anyone is looking for a decent (and non-flamey) breakdown of the twizzle scoring, check out the discussion on the Golden Skate forum (the SD thread under the GPF forum). From what I could gather, MC may have hit the criteria for level 4; the error they had would be reflected in the GOE. I'm not sure why a couple of the judges gave them +3, but surprisingly, a +2 seems like it would be a legit mark to give, considering the type of error MC had on this element. I actually understand the scoring better now, having read that explanation.

  3. #83

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    Is there video of the SD that shows the twizzles from a different angle and not aerial? Just curious.
    "Eve was not taken out of Adam's head to top him, neither out of his feet to be trampled by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him."

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by semogal View Post
    I really like V/M's music for the 1st and last section. They lose me in the middle. Like last year's polka, the finnstep just seems thrown in there and interrupts the flow of the dance for me. They execute it very well though. One of the advantages that Meryl and Charlie have is that their music blends and stays in character throughout.
    This. I wonder who cuts VM's music. They've had this issue (JMO) with music for at least two seasons now. Their cuts end being kind of jarring--this is especially noticeable with their FD.

    I know Charlie does the initial cuts but I remember reading somewhere that he then sends the music to a professional who edits and makes sure it's seamless.
    "Eve was not taken out of Adam's head to top him, neither out of his feet to be trampled by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him."

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaffeine View Post
    Is there video of the SD that shows the twizzles from a different angle and not aerial? Just curious.
    I watched the one with the Eurosport commentary, and there was a slow-mo replay of the twizzles, which definitely showed the problem MC had.

    Let's see if this works--I tried to link the video on the slow-mo replay:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...rH3MDEuk#t=316

    If that doesn't work, the link to the whole program is here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yStrH3MDEuk

    And the slow-mo of the twizzles starts at about 5:16.

  6. #86

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    USFS' Day 2 recap: http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2013/...l-day-2-recap/
    Davis and White set a world record short dance score of 77.66 and take a 0.07 point lead over Canadian rivals Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir into Saturday’s free dance. Davis and White, performing to My Fair Lady, achieved Level 4s on all five of their elements.

    “It definitely felt like a season’s best in terms of performance and technically,” Davis said. “There’s a lot of room for growth in this program still which we are really excited about. It definitely feels like the best we have put out this season and it’s nice to see that on the scoreboard as well.”

    The PCS mark proved to be the difference between first and second. Virtue and Moir held a 0.15 edge in the technical mark, but Davis and White’s second mark of 38.73 bested that of the Canadians by 0.22.

    Following the performance, White acknowledged their competitors’ high score.

    “There were a little bit of extra nerves on the bigger stage against the good ole Canadian rivals over here who we knew would put down a good score,” White explained. “It’s hard to block out a score like that before you skate. But we settled in quickly. Technically all level fours, we are really happy with that. It’s just a lot of hard work. We feel like there is room to grow still so that’s exciting. Overall, we are pleased with our performance.”
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Thanks for sharing! I really give MC credit for going out after VM threw down the gauntlet and skating as well as they did. It wasn't perfect, but it got the job done, and it shows they're not easily intimidated.

  8. #88

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    I thought D/W looked tentative in the warm-up. I remember thinking Meryl looked nervous, she was doing extras claps. However, I don't trust my brain's perceptions at 4:30 AM.

    I too wonder why they changed the lift. The old lift got the max score at NHK, so there was no reason to change score-wise. Perhaps this new lift is better for them, when under pressure?

  9. #89

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    I still think it's the risk of being slapped back to level 1 if there is a perceived stop in rotation by Charlie when Meryl changes position. After looking at the downgrades on lifts at COR in the SD, especially to C&B, but also to W&P, I don't know why any team would include a change of position rotational lift especially in the SD.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    I still think it's the risk of being slapped back to level 1 if there is a perceived stop in rotation by Charlie when Meryl changes position. After looking at the downgrades on lifts at COR in the SD, especially to C&B, but also to W&P, I don't know why any team would include a change of position rotational lift especially in the SD.
    But they haven't had that problem all GP season. I'm hoping it's a placeholder for a different lift
    "Eve was not taken out of Adam's head to top him, neither out of his feet to be trampled by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him."

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaffeine View Post
    But they haven't had that problem all GP season. I'm hoping it's a placeholder for a different lift
    I think Doris might be onto something, though. Why take that risk? It's possible they'll have a totally new lift by Sochi, but maybe not, if they can re-use a familiar lift and pull big marks. It's so frustrating, because I love it when they introduce new lifts, but maybe it's just not worth taking the chance, especially considering the way things were going at COR.

  12. #92
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    I agree with Doris. I think to have changed the lift (which they were scoring well with) they either got feedback directly or are reacting to the "by the book" judging at COR. They can't afford to leave anything to chance or leave any points on the table if they are going to achieve their goals in Sochi. And we all know by now that Meryl and Charlie are smart cookies!!

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    I did like the little changes, but not that one. I just have to roll my eyes at those who suggest that it was the worst SD performance ever. It wasn't their best and they should have been in second, but they didn't make any more errors than their competitors have made this season who've scored in a similar range. Sometimes I think judges enjoy feeding the drama.
    I read all the comments on the Tessa and Scott ubers thread so far, and no one there has said that Meryl and Charlie's skate was the worst SD performance ever. I haven't read the GPF SD thread, though - probably it's there that you read such comments? But many people who comment there are not ubers of any of the two teams - at least I haven't seen them posting in the ubers threads. Also - what similar range? Tessa and Scott have never gotten a World record with a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by E.A. Week View Post
    No, the notion that it's like the worst performance ever is ridiculous. I'm staying out of any thread except this one: I don't need my eyes flamed out of their sockets, thanks very much.
    See above. There has not been such a comment on Tessa and Scott's ubers threads. I know that you didn't say that, but I am just clarifying too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    That's the problem with crazed fans. They can't make one comment, not even on a valid argument, without taking it to the most hateful extreme possible.
    I think you are now taking it to an extreme with this comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    i know this is a d/w thread, but to say that it's being to the hateful extreme when people express frustration over some obvious judging inconsistencies--who's taking it to the extreme now?
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    Wow at some V/M ubers accusing us of downplaying D/W's twizzle error, because you know, it's not like some of them wanted to ignore Tessa's blatant mistake in the SD at worlds, or refer to it as a "minor error". I don't know why I go in there. V/M received a WR SD score before D/W skated, the highest SD of their career, they're just .07 behind, but they're not happy. Sometimes I think that it's more about D/W losing than it is about V/M winning. No matter the score they receive, it's too high, if V/M are in first, the difference is never big enough.
    I agree about the first one - at least partially. Fans always want to downplay their favorite's mistakes. V/M got punished more harshly for Tessa's mistake in twizzles, though - and their mistake was indeed more severe. But I don't think that Meryl and Charlie should get +3 for these twizzles. Even +2 is debatable. If Tessa or Scott would have had the same mistake, they may not have lost a level either, but they surely wouldn't get +3 and +2 GOE. To me it's clear why Tessa and Scott fans (including me) are not happy. It's not just about personal best or World record score, it's about Tessa and Scott losing to Meryl and Charlie even with a technically perfect performance, while Meryl and Charlie were not perfect. It's also about the difference in PCS. I don't buy those excuses about Meryl and Charlie having a more coherent music and program. The mood and tempo of it doesn't change almost throughout - according to PCS criteria, that's not a very good thing. The tempo and mood should change. So, those two things should at least level each other out. And how was Meryl and Charlie's performance better? People might argue that it was not worse, but better? Do they really have more transitions? Should "more coherent" choreography be valued above choreography with more detail? And are Meryl and Charlie's skating skills truly better? They may be faster at places, they may have more flow simply because their SD is constructed that way, and Tessa and Scott's SD is very different. But, according to PCS criteria, while speed and flow have weight, they are not everything. There are several more criteria in which, I believe, Tessa and Scott are stronger. And what has "coherence" of the music to do with interpretation? Interpretation is about how skaters are interpreting the music which they are skating to, not about what music they are using. Otherwise, all the criteria for that component could be thrown out, and judges could just "judge" it in accordance with their personal musical preferences.

    I was surprised to see D/W in first, it clearly wasn't their best performance. I thought they would lose a level on their twizzles because Meryl stopped twizzling (is that a word?) before Charlie on the first set. I have said I have a slight preference for V/M's SD this season, and I was thrilled to see them skate it as well as they did because it's a great dance.
    Thank you at least for saying this.

  14. #94
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    Wow, I missed a hell lot not being here for a while. Let me just add my three words on the SD.

    It was probably not Meryl and Charlie's best performance in terms of confidence, they looked a little tense. However, I can't help but at the comments that the dance was so visibly flawed and weaker than Tessa and Scott's. That twizzle error? It wasn't even an error, they were simply out of sync. I don't get the complaints. They did lose TES to Tessa and Scott, didn't they? For an "error" this tiny, how much of a point loss did they expect?

    I like the new lift. Liked the old one too, but the new one is beautiful and kind of their trademark.

    Honestly, I'm kind of relieved. If they had to have a bobble, better here than at the Olys.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    Wow, I missed a hell lot not being here for a while. Let me just add my three words on the SD.

    It was probably not Meryl and Charlie's best performance in terms of confidence, they looked a little tense. However, I can't help but at the comments that the dance was so visibly flawed and weaker than Tessa and Scott's. That twizzle error? It wasn't even an error, they were simply out of sync. I don't get the complaints. They did lose TES to Tessa and Scott, didn't they? For an "error" this tiny, how much of a point loss did they expect?

    I like the new lift. Liked the old one too, but the new one is beautiful and kind of their trademark.

    Honestly, I'm kind of relieved. If they had to have a bobble, better here than at the Olys.
    Brava ! I totally agree!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    That twizzle error? It wasn't even an error, they were simply out of sync. I don't get the complaints. They did lose TES to Tessa and Scott, didn't they? For an "error" this tiny, how much of a point loss did they expect?
    Quote Originally Posted by valpadana View Post
    Brava ! I totally agree!!
    What about +3 and +2 GOE? What about PCS? Is a "more coherent" music and program enough to justify that, when there are other points in which Tessa and Scott's SD is superior even according to PCS criteria?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    What about +3 and +2 GOE? What about PCS? Is a "more coherent" music and program enough to justify that, when there are other points in which Tessa and Scott's SD is superior even according to PCS criteria?
    + 3 GOE is too much, I agree on that. Still, other elements by D/W were just as great as by V/M or better.
    PCS? Well deserved. Meryl and Charlie have fitted their Finnstep into the overall choreo much better than V/M. In V/M's dance, as great at it is, the Finnstep part looks a bit awkward, just like Polka looked. But i get it, it's just not their type of dance. Still, I can get the edge on CH. V/M won PE, rightfully so. The other components might have gone either way.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    What about +3 and +2 GOE? What about PCS? Is a "more coherent" music and program enough to justify that, when there are other points in which Tessa and Scott's SD is superior even according to PCS criteria?
    I believe +3 is not justified for those twizzles.

    However, yes, covering more ice (which is key in the speed part of skating skills) and in the Choreo & Composition mark
    • Pattern and ice coverage
    is a significant difference in Meryl & Charlie's favor.

    In the SD, speed is easier for the judges to gauge because of the relative sizes of the Finnstep patterns-since both teams are doing exactly the same steps, the team with the bigger pattern was faster.

    Also included the Choreo & comp mark is the parts about a coherent program and unity of style. For whatever reason, although Tessa & Scott incorporated the Finnstep this year better than they incorporated the polka last year, there is still a break in the program when they do the Finnstep. No one would ever say of their Finnstep that they were half way through the pattern dance before I realized they were doing it (one of the Eurosport guys said this at NHK). Consequently, the teams have offsetting strengths. This may sound trivial, but having the SD feel like one complete, unified program is part of the big goals of designing a successful short dance.

    I expect Tessa & Scott's music cuts to be smoothed out before Canadian Nationals though (their polka was better at Worlds than at GPF).

  19. #99

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    So if we put the twizzle error aside for a moment here, what did you think of the program? the changes? the Finnstep? the midline?
    "Eve was not taken out of Adam's head to top him, neither out of his feet to be trampled by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him."

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    The program is growing on me, it's not my favorite of their SD's (Giselle will always have my heart) but I think it's a great vehicle for them. I hope they go back to their old lift, though, or maybe create a new one between now and Nationals.

    I just want to say a couple more things about the twizzles. I don't believe they deserved +3 for those, they were clearly out of sync, and no one here is trying to deny that or defend it. D/W's twizzles were scored lower than V/M's, and they lost the TES (rightfully so with the twizzle error), they were virtually tied on everything else. They are separated by .07, that is literally nothing. D/W didn't run away with this, V/M are not out of the game and I don't understand why some of their fans believe they are. They received the best SD score of their career, I don't understand why some of them believe it's out of the realm of possibility that they could also receive a high FD score as well that propel them to a victory.
    Last edited by Whitneyskates; 12-07-2013 at 12:03 AM.

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