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  1. #181
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    Yes I totally agree with you. The spot should be taken away then. As I read more into this thread, the fact that Kerry might think of herself somehow a better Australian because she is born and raised in that country is absurd. If you are Australian then it shouldn't matter, and in fact anything outside of this type of thinking is just providing all sorts of criteria. I mean next these small country skaters are going to say that you aren't as good because you train out side of the country part time, etc. If you qualify for the passport then you are a citizen period. And I can tell you that a 17 year old isn't saying, hey dad and mom, lets sue our skating union and bring all sorts of bad press to our sport. Kerry most likely is very disappointed and mommy and daddy are going to help their little angel any way they can. That is what I think is going on and Kerry will skate if she has the chance.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Speculating here.
    ... With the CAS hearing scheduled for next week, ..., it is probably costing Han and her team thousands of dollars more to change air fares and accommodation.
    I don't know that it is necessary for the athlete or her coaches to actually be present at a CAS hearing, just her legal team. The part about costing thousands of dollars is right, though, and I agree that if the complaint is dismissed, the complainant should have to pay the costs for both sides.

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Han violated an ISA rule by participating at Hershey, then it seems to me to be within the ISA's purview to decide the appropriate punishment, including deciding that skating in a club event did not really violate the spirit of the rule. This leads me to a couple questions I haven't seen answered:

    1) This suit seems to assume the ISA cannot exercise any discretion here and that loss of eligibility is the only allowable response. I don't know the ISA membership rules, but it seems likely to me that their disciplinary procedures would allow them some degree of leeway to consider the severity of the offense and to decide what action to take. If so, then another skater would, legally speaking, not be an "interested party" in these proceedings.

    2) When the ISA sent Han to Nebelhorn, were they already aware of her participation at Hershey? If yes, then IMO they effectively approved after-the fact, and arguably would be estopped from reversing themselves later. In other words, if the ISA was going to regard this as an infraction worthy of loss of eligibility, they needed to do it reasonably soon after learning of the violation, not look the other way until Han had secured them the Olympic spot then pull her eligibility.

    I suspect the answers to these questions may contribute to the ISA's decision to support Han's selection and oppose Kerry's challenge.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't know that it is necessary for the athlete or her coaches to actually be present at a CAS hearing, just her legal team. The part about costing thousands of dollars is right, though, and I agree that if the complaint is dismissed, the complainant should have to pay the costs for both sides.

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Han violated an ISA rule by participating at Hershey, then it seems to me to be within the ISA's purview to decide the appropriate punishment, including deciding that skating in a club event did not really violate the spirit of the rule. This leads me to a couple questions I haven't seen answered:

    1) This suit seems to assume the ISA cannot exercise any discretion here and that loss of eligibility is the only allowable response. I don't know the ISA membership rules, but it seems likely to me that their disciplinary procedures would allow them some degree of leeway to consider the severity of the offense and to decide what action to take. If so, then another skater would, legally speaking, not be an "interested party" in these proceedings.

    2) When the ISA sent Han to Nebelhorn, were they already aware of her participation at Hershey? If yes, then IMO they effectively approved after-the fact, and arguably would be estopped from reversing themselves later. In other words, if the ISA was going to regard this as an infraction worthy of loss of eligibility, they needed to do it reasonably soon after learning of the violation, not look the other way until Han had secured them the Olympic spot then pull her eligibility.

    I suspect the answers to these questions may contribute to the ISA's decision to support Han's selection and oppose Kerry's challenge.

    You touch on items I am not sure have really been answered. First, lets say that Han skated without an authorization letter at Hersey. Is that a ISU violation or a ISA violation? Maybe Syliva can answer this? I really think that if she violated ISU rules then the spot is gone, but if she violated ISA rules then all is up in the air.

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Chantelle's twitter bio says "AUS born, raised and livin'!" I wonder if there is some bitterness that Brooklee was born and has lived her whole life in the U.S.

    https://twitter.com/chantelle_kerry
    I wonder if she has southern cross tattoo also

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    It is believed to be the 2013 Hershey Open.
    Yes, the key phrase begin "believed". As in "we don't know, but we guess" Therefore, my comment stands... We don't know what competition it is that Kerry's team is complaining about it. It could be that one or it could be another one that happened after Nebelhorn.
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  6. #186

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    I don't see how this can turn out favourably for Chantelle at all; as in, I don't see how she can be sent, even if she "wins". It does seem like she arguing against Brooklee's selection, but not for hers...

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Yes, the key phrase begin "believed". As in "we don't know, but we guess" Therefore, my comment stands... We don't know what competition it is that Kerry's team is complaining about it. It could be that one or it could be another one that happened after Nebelhorn.
    According to the ISA rules that Sylvia quoted up thread, the appeals process within ISA is first to appeal to a tribunal, which rejected Kerry's complaint, and then to take it to CAS. According to the provisions of CAS (Code 2013 ed),

    Procedural Rules
    A General Provisions
    R27 Application of the Rules
    These Procedural Rules apply whenever the parties have agreed to refer a sports-related dispute to CAS. Such reference may arise out of an arbitration clause contained in a contract or regulations or by reason of a later arbitration agreement (ordinary arbitration proceedings) or may involve an appeal against a decision rendered by a federation, association or sports-related body where the statutes or regulations of such bodies, or a specific agreement provide for an appeal to CAS (appeal arbitration proceedings).
    This suggests that since the ISA Rules allow for CAS arbitration after the tribunal has announced a decision, Kerry's appeal to CAS is step two of the same complaint, which would have been before Nebelhorn, since she tried to block Han from competing at Nebelhorn through the tribunal process.

    Hershey's has been suggested, because it's the only know competition in which Han competed in which she wouldn't have needed her Federation's signature on the application form, the requirement for Senior B's. The only known exception to this has been Ando, who received direct invitations from Senior B organizers.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 12-05-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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  8. #188
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    Seems Chantelle has withdrawn from Senior ladies!

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    That's she has. How odd!

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oz_sk8ting_mum View Post
    Seems Chantelle has withdrawn from Senior ladies!
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    That's she has. How odd!
    She probably didn't want to lose because she thinks it would look bad for her case.

    Is the Worlds spot based on Nationals? I can't remember...

  11. #191

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    Re-posting from the Aussie Skating thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Oz_sk8ting_mum View Post
    The Policy Document is at: http://www.isa.org.au/Documents/High...20Criteria.pdf

    The section relating to Worlds states

    4.2 World Championships
    (a) Selection for the 2014 ISU World Figure Skating Championships will be allocated to senior age eligible athletes from the ISA Senior International Pool who:
    (i) have achieved the ISU Minimum Technical Scores for World Figure Skating Championships 2014 by 26 January 2014.
    The ISU minimum Technical Scores for World Figure Skating Championships 2014 as published by the ISU are:
    Men SP 34.0 FS 63.0
    Ladies SP 26.0 FS 46.0
    Pair Skating SP 24.0 FS 41.0
    Ice Dance SD 28.0 FD 38.0
    and
    (ii) have competed in the Senior Division of the 2013 AFSC or have been granted an Exceptional Circumstance for the 2013 AFSC
    (b) If more than one (1) athlete in each discipline has met the above requirements, athletes will be evaluated by the ISA Selection Panel based on their two highest:
    (i) Technical Element Scores (short program/dance); and
    (ii) Technical Element Scores (free program/dance); and
    (iii) Total Points Scores achieved at any two of the following events:
     2013 AFSC;
     2013/2014 ISU International Competitions in the current international skating season; and
     One 2013 ISU Championship event
    (c) The mean of each of the scores obtained for 4.2(b)(i),(ii),(iii) above will be calculated. The highest aggregate ordinals of the scores will be used to determine nominations. In the case of a tie in the ordinals of the scores, then the athlete with the highest short program/dance TES will determine the nominations.
    (d) The nominations will be published on the ISA website (www.isa.org.au) by 3 February 2013.
    Subsequently ranked athletes will be entered as substitutes.
    (e) If ISA is unable to fill the full entry quota by 26 January 2014, then ISA will consider any athletes in the ISA Senior International pool who are able to achieve the ISU Minimum Technical Score requirements for ISU World Figure Skating Championships between 27 January and 16 March 2014. Athletes entered into ISU international competitions within the specified timeframe will receive a provisional entry for the ISU World Figure Skating Championships subject to achieving the ISU Minimum Technical Scores. If more than one athlete meets the ISU Minimum Technical Score requirements, the athlete with the highest short program/dance TES will be nominated.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-05-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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  12. #192

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    Thanks Silvia!

    Chantelle was at practice this morning...

  13. #193

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    Brooklee's SP scores: 1 Brooklee HAN VIC 58.61 33.53 25.08 6.42 6.00 6.50 6.00 6.42 0.00 #7

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    She probably didn't want to lose because she thinks it would look bad for her case.
    I would imagine so!!!!!!!!

    Brooklee Han landed 3-lutz-2toe, 3-loop (turn out), and 2A. World (and Olympic) Class stuff!

  15. #195
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    More poor decisions by Team C Kerry! I am sure she will have all the appropriate paperwork to withdraw! What a shame they don't have the appropriate attitude towards good sportsmanship! Monica MacDonald sure knows how to play politics, Chantelle is a lovely and talented skater, instead of wasting so much time, energy and money on trying to get a spot to the Olympics by playing games and taking someone else's successes from them based on political technicalities, why not invest that same time, money and energy into sending Chantelle to train in the USA with her brother Brendan and his coach Tammy Gambill, maybe then she can try and WIN a spot for herself for 2018 and also feel great about her own personal achievements and success. Just a thought!!!

  16. #196
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    I see we are allowed to talk about this now

    Chantelle has been complaining about being sick today and yesterday. There was a picture she sent out to a bunch of skaters stating that she "hated being sick at a time like this", through a iphone app.
    As far as how being sick affected her performance leading up to the event, I was at the senior unofficial and she was having no problems at all. Skating very good, wasn't quite about to nail that triple triple we all saw in the video she posted about a month ago, but all the same she looked very fit and ready to go.
    I would assume this withdraw is a strategic move here, not wanting to look bad if she was beat by Brooklee.

  17. #197

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    She was well enough to be at practice this morning.

    And Brooklee got a fab score in the SP.

  18. #198

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    I thought Brooklee was great tonight.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    I agree & think it's important to keep things separate. Chantelle's improved a lot even compared to a year ago and she could potentially get even better in the future. No idea wtf she hopes to accomplish with this appeal, besides losing some goodwill in the process, but her skating itself is actually quite good & I enjoy watching her skate. I know there are no guarantees in skating, but her rate of progress the past 2 years bodes well for her chances in 2018. Hopefully she can start focusing on improving her own skating even more going forward and move on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYvZDrWGbHg
    Yes. Whilst what has happened has made me angry and disappointed, the only thing I have an issue with is Chantelle Kerry's team action, taken in this case. I have always admired her skating. Her jump technique isn't great and she doesn't have consistent triples. She usually shows well choreographed, interesting and original programs, however, and she presents them very well. She also has been slowly improving from season to season and the triples are getting there (furthermore, she's never played safe and is always attempting them). If that continues, I have no doubt that she would be at Olympic level in four years.

    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Chantelle's twitter bio says "AUS born, raised and livin'!" I wonder if there is some bitterness that Brooklee was born and has lived her whole life in the U.S.
    And she thinks that she deserves to go to Olympics just because of that? Her brother is training in the US now because the conditions there are superior to those available back home. Does this mean that another skater who is still Australia-based is now more deserving of the Olympic spot than him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvster View Post
    Brooklee Han landed 3-lutz-2toe, 3-loop (turn out), and 2A. World (and Olympic) Class stuff!
    I was extremely happy to see how well Brooklee Han has managed to skate her short program. This situation must have resulted in a lot of stress for her. But she has managed to prove that she's an Olympic level skater. On the ice.

    Furthermore, Han didn't just skate near clean. She has also upper the technical difficulty of her short program. In the past her SP jumps were 3toe/2toe, 3loop and 2axel. She has now replaced the 3toe with a 3lutz.

    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    Chantelle has been complaining about being sick today and yesterday. There was a picture she sent out to a bunch of skaters stating that she "hated being sick at a time like this", through a iphone app.
    As far as how being sick affected her performance leading up to the event, I was at the senior unofficial and she was having no problems at all. Skating very good, wasn't quite about to nail that triple triple we all saw in the video she posted about a month ago, but all the same she looked very fit and ready to go. I would assume this withdraw is a strategic move here, not wanting to look bad if she was beat by Brooklee.
    In the end, it's the skating that is doing the talking.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    Yes I totally agree with you. The spot should be taken away then. As I read more into this thread, the fact that Kerry might think of herself somehow a better Australian because she is born and raised in that country is absurd. If you are Australian then it shouldn't matter, and in fact anything outside of this type of thinking is just providing all sorts of criteria. I mean next these small country skaters are going to say that you aren't as good because you train out side of the country part time, etc. If you qualify for the passport then you are a citizen period. And I can tell you that a 17 year old isn't saying, hey dad and mom, lets sue our skating union and bring all sorts of bad press to our sport. Kerry most likely is very disappointed and mommy and daddy are going to help their little angel any way they can. That is what I think is going on and Kerry will skate if she has the chance.
    Exactly, sounds like a case of SBS! Spoiled Brat Syndrome at its finest ! What's sad about this is that Kerry has robbed Han of the joy of being announced with the rest of the team as well as some sense of relief for the time being. Kerry does this and then withdraws! Really?? At least Han went out and skated beautifully so I'm sure it wouldn't matter if Kerry had skated or not since she wouldn't have beaten Han..

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