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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    Maybe I focus too much on the negative but was their a major title that they won with two flawless skates? So are they really on a decline or have they now just tough competition in V/T that they didn't have a few years ago? Are V/T maybe just better because they're consistent?
    That said, I really do want to see S/S win gold at the Olympics. I'm biased anyway, being German, however, I think they deserve it. They have so many great qualities to their skating and I could watch them skate for hours and hours and wouldn't care if they jumped or not because, for me, they don't need the jumps to be great.
    I'm not going to pretend that I remember every program accurately, I definitely have a more fond rose colored glasses thing going on, but I do remember their Worlds 2011 Pink Panther LP was clean.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    Maybe I focus too much on the negative but was their a major title that they won with two flawless skates? So are they really on a decline or have they now just tough competition in V/T that they didn't have a few years ago? Are V/T maybe just better because they're consistent?
    Savchenko/Szolkowy were very good at 2011 Worlds. I think they had one real mistake in 2009 but it's been a while so I could be wrong.

    Winning competitions with two flawless skates is not something most skaters manage regularly, even good ones. V/T were not flawless in winning Worlds, BTW, and I don't believe they were completely clean in their Euros wins, either.

    Anyway, I think the issue many people have with V/T is the scoring - especially PCS - rather than the absolute placements.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 11-28-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by apatinar View Post
    I don't know what people saw in the Pina program. To me that was one of the most disjointed cuts of music and choreography that I have ever seen from any pairs team in decades..
    .
    This!

    I think that fans are more impressed with the idea of Pina and even that this team brought something that was not well known into skating spotlight. The choreography was blah and the music cuts were not impressive as you mentioned. To me, from an expression standpoint, this program highlighted Aliona's lack of facial expression. Anyway...back to the thread...

  4. #44
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    Yeah they did really well that year. Their 2009 Worlds SP was done really well, it was definitely colorful and odd, but it made sense why people had them pegged for Gold in 2010. It's a bit sad it didn't go that way and she was ill. That's life. We all have fave skaters who were never Olympic champions.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    S/S are an incredible pair. Thanks to that, in my opinion there is one thing they could do to win gold: forget about anything else (the scores, the critiques, the judges, the odds, the outcome) and just focus on being the best possible skaters they can be.
    Too much effort, too much worrying about what's out of their control (like the possible bias towards Russian skaters, expecially Pairs since it's the strongest Russian event), the anticipation of a lost gold, all of that can get them under the weather and make them skate worse than they could.
    But if they thrive, if they focus solely on being the amazing skaters they are capable of being, they can wow the world, anf put the Russian bias in a difficult spot. Put pressure and V/T too, and make them handle it instead of letting V/T forcing pressure on competitors.

    In my opinion S/S have to think about their job, fly high, dream big; if that shows it could work a miracle.

    What worries me the most, isn't even that dangerous 3A, but the fact I'm seeing them less confident and less happy than thier talent and work should make them.
    You said it better than I could. They should keep the focus on being the unique pair that they are, do something that is unique to THEM.
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

  6. #46
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    They have to skate clean and hope for V&T to make mistakes. Considering S&S are very likely to make mistakes, and V&T likely to make none, both of the reverse happening in sync is extremely unlikely.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    Maybe I focus too much on the negative but was their a major title that they won with two flawless skates?
    If I remember well, 2011 Worlds in Russia. They also produced several clean LP performances.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    In fact I dont believe V&T have ever had a controversial win or medal ever.
    I do recall at the last GPF more than a few people said they should have got the silver and B/L should have won the gold.

    V/T have only been competing together for less than three years, they don't exactly S/Z's legacy in regards to competing with some of the best pairs skaters in the world like Sale & Pelletier, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze and Totmianina & Marinin. With only around 20 competitions under their belts (and some are too small to count) how much controversy can there be.

    S/S don't have a chance of winning gold unless V/T bomb severely and S/S are perfect, 3ATh and all. I doubt that will happen. Unless V/T get hurt or DQed, they will win gold. S/S needs to do the best they can and win the silver. I would hate to have them bomb and have someone else push them to 3rd or God forbid 4th.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    I do recall at the last GPF more than a few people said they should have got the silver and B/L should have won the gold.
    Given that most people seem to think B&L are one of the most overrated pairs today and gripe constantly about their scores, I highly doubt that.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    In fact I dont believe V&T have ever had a controversial win or medal ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Given that most people seem to think B&L are one of the most overrated pairs today and gripe constantly about their scores, I highly doubt that.
    And I'm certainly one of them; but on that day I can see why some would have thought that V/T's competition win was controversial. No matter who the team is anyone can have a good day and great ones can have a bad one.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...Going-Up-Up-Up Page 5 or 6

    If V/T perform as badly as they did at Worlds in 2012 and only get 131 in the free like they did at the GPF last year, they can be beaten, by a few teams.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    If V/T perform as badly as they did at Worlds in 2012 and only get 131 in the free like they did at the GPF last year, they can be beaten, by a few teams.
    For sure which just means if V&T dont deserve the Olympic Gold, they wont win it. If they skate like they have in every competition this year they do deserve the OGM though.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by apatinar View Post
    I don't know what people saw in the Pina program. To me that was one of the most disjointed cuts of music and choreography that I have ever seen from any pairs team in decades..
    I agree. I watched it after some here gave an impression that it was some sort of artistic masterpiece, but it just showed me the attributes that annoyed me about this pair when they first came out. Yes, the choreography can be complex. However, I always felt this pair always over-complicated their routines to the point where many of the moves are incongruent with the interpretation or music. Also, their facial expressions and interpretation leave a lot to be desired, IMO. They just aren't convincing to me as interpreters of music (which is why Out of Africa rang so false with me). I also think they're pretty messy and unclean with their choreographed moves that I find it distracting (like the way Aliona was picked up by a kneeling Robin in Pina…she stumbled exiting that move and instead of a seamless transition, it was just distracting).

    I also found it baffling when S/S's lack of consistency was constantly excused (their routines are so difficult that of course they're going to mess up a few times as opposed to thinking that maybe if they can't handle their programs then they should hone back on the choreography to a level that they can handle then move up from there). I think it just brings me back to the arbitrary "transitions are everything type of doctrine" that was so popular here for a few seasons…even at the expense of other qualities. Of course, now that their choreography seems to have simplified a bit (still not simple), they still haven't gotten any consistency. Of course, the focus of the throw 3 Axel can be blamed for that.

    This team has a lot of brilliant qualities, and I understand why people prefer them over generic and artistically-uninspired V/T. However, I find S/S to be one of the most overrated pairs in modern times, and Pina being a very overrated program. That said, with the dearth of interesting pairs since COP was implemented, I will say I rather have pairs follow in the footsteps of S/S who seems to try to bring something of a signature and advancement to the discipline artistically.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 11-29-2013 at 07:15 AM.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    For sure which just means if V&T dont deserve the Olympic Gold, they wont win it. If they skate like they have in every competition this year they do deserve the OGM though.
    +1 They starting winning over S/S, when they started deserving it.

    [QUOTE=VIETgrlTerifa;4066302
    I understand why people prefer them over generic and artistically-uninspired V/T. [/QUOTE]
    I get people preferring S/S's style over V/T, but calling them "generic"? A bit harsh, IMO.
    If to the direct topic of the thread: they could've created outstanding programs in their unique style like Pina, which I personally adore, or out of Africa. But the set of programs S/S have this year are not exactly masterpieces. I mean, they are good but not that better than what V/T or even M-T/M have. However, I love the ending pose for the Nutcracker.
    Imo, S/S can't beat V/T this year with far better programs (plus, when V/T are inspired they sell whatever program they're skating, for me at least) and besides 3A have no advantage over V/T technically
    Now, S/S can only hope that they skate clean enough for at least their silver not being controversal and hope that V/T make mistakes.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    This!

    I think that fans are more impressed with the idea of Pina and even that this team brought something that was not well known into skating spotlight. The choreography was blah and the music cuts were not impressive as you mentioned. To me, from an expression standpoint, this program highlighted Aliona's lack of facial expression. Anyway...back to the thread...
    I think your post is extremely patronising to those of us who have noted why Pina was such a good programme chroepgraphically speaking.

    Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make it better or more correct than anyone else's.

  15. #55
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    S&S were amazing at the 2011 Worlds, they did not miss anything. If they skate like that in Sochi I still believe it will be difficult to get the Gold. The judges have kind of dumped them since V/T have come along.
    V/T started their season early in fantastic form. S&S are more interesting for me. They always do something a little different with their choreography.
    I don't think they were gifted their World titles in 2008 & 2009. The Zhangs had very bland choreography & made errors too. 2012 was tight but V/T lost the title with a very poor SP.
    V/T had a few big errors in last seasons GPF but still won.
    I really hope S/S can improve their form for the GPF.

  16. #56
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    They definitely deserved their 2009 title, but in 2008 I would have had the Zhangs and Dube & Davison both beating them. So would the EuroSport team who were flabergasted with the result.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    They definitely deserved their 2009 title, but in 2008 I would have had the Zhangs and Dube & Davison both beating them. So would the EuroSport team who were flabergasted with the result.
    I remember that. D/D were the best in the free. But I felt that the Zhangs were quite bland in their free skate. But stunning in the short program.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    They definitely deserved their 2009 title, but in 2008 I would have had the Zhangs and Dube & Davison both beating them. So would the EuroSport team who were flabergasted with the result.
    I can't recall all the performances now so I can't comment on that but the Eurosport commentators are - as entertaining and pleasant to listen to as they are - not always very reliable. Especially when it comes to the technical content they often put their foot in their mouth. Nicky Slater mostly provides fashion commentary and ignores the technical aspects aside from jumps.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    I remember that. D/D were the best in the free. But I felt that the Zhangs were quite bland in their free skate. But stunning in the short program.
    Oh they were definitely bland but still should have scored atleast equal to S&S`s hot mess of a performance with glaring errors, and as they were ahead in the short they would have then beaten them. D&D deserved to beat S&S by atleast 5 points in the LP IMO, again enough to beat them overall. Over the 2 programs they had 5 significant errors:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcF0pTUfOLQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAxTbMwnf6o

    An overrotated and step out of the triple toe by her in the short (still was very good otherwise and definitely deserved 2nd in that phase), an overrotated and step out of the triple toe by him in the long, him falling on the triple salchow attempt, she stumbling and putting hands down on hers (atleast 1 of them looked underrotated too), spins badly out of sync. In this case I think their reaction was justified and very technical based. It is like it was some magificient program either. One lo long hum of music all the way, a bit boring frankly. Still good enough to win overall had they skated it fairly cleanly or with less substantial errors but with that performance, no way.


    Still not anywhere in the league of about 15 of Chan`s ridiculous wins or anything. However I doubt V&T will ever have a World or Olympic win as controversial as that either.

  20. #60
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    S&S need more political support

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