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  1. #41

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    There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

    Mishin does NOT shut off his students from outside choreographers. In fact, Liza's much-maligned long program this year was by - gasp! - Jeff Buttle (as was Artur's short). Liza also chose the Latin theme. She likes them. He does NOT restrict them artistically - the selection of Anna Karenina, for example, was made by Artur himself, not by Mishin or anyone else.

    Liza's problems are physical issues related to the onset of puberty. Artur's are predominantly psychological (with a few physical thrown in). No coach in the world can just magically wave a wand and fix either problem. Ever. Mishin is handling them very well, I think, with support and a gentle grace that other coaches would not manage. I mean, can you imagine, say, Tom Zakrasjek being so gentle with a skater whose body changed so radically as Liza's? Or with a skater who suffered such severe psychological problems as Artur's? I certainly can't - he'd likely have broken Liza already and tossed Artur on the scrapheap.

    A coach change is not a magical antidote to every problem. Sometimes it only makes the problem worse. Look at Abbott - all those coaching changes and no-one has ever managed to fix HIS head.

    What I think would benefit Artur most, would be to keep this season's programs again next year. They are very nice programs, especially the beautiful LP, and if he didn't have to worry about learning new programs, it might help him to sort through his problems with other things. (Okay, and the selfish fan-part of me just wants to see Anna Karenina as many times as possible.)

  2. #42
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    Even though I don't like her programmes, I can't help but root for Tuktamysheva. I think she'll be fine. As someone said, puberty hit her harder than most and it will take time to adjust to her new body on the ice. It may take a few years, even, because once you lose momentum with the judges it can be hard to get it back, but I think she has the potential to fight her way back to the top. It seems she's destined for a late-blooming career, in relative terms, which is not always a bad thing.

    I don't even know what to say about Gachinski. I like him a lot and wish he could reset his career and start from scratch. I don't know if Mishin is telling him this, but he needs to forget he was ever a World medallist, in my opinion. He was a different skater then; comparisons to his past accomplishments are fruitless and can only make him feel like a failure. He can't go back to that point in his career or recreate it. He can only build on what he has right now, which is really a blessing in disguise--a chance to let go of people's expectations and reinvent his skating in a way he likes.

    It's good that Mishin has him working with people like Lambiel and Buttle because it signals an awareness on Mishin's part that Artur needs a change in direction and exposure to different approaches to skating, but I want to see signs of this work in his programmes during the season.

    But yes, I'm actually impressed with the way Mishin is handling Gachinski; he seems really patient and supportive and at least intellectually aware that his traditional coaching methods can't meet all of Gachinski's needs. I don't think a change of coaches would work here because no one else would believe in Artur as strongly as Mishin does, and that seems absolutely necessary for his self-esteem right now. But the guy needs a sports psychologist and a staff choreographer or junior coach to resist Mishin's natural programme-gutting tendencies during the season, and maybe a short break from the sport to clear his head and give him some perspective.
    Last edited by Holy Headband; 12-29-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

    Mishin does NOT shut off his students from outside choreographers. In fact, Liza's much-maligned long program this year was by - gasp! - Jeff Buttle (as was Artur's short). Liza also chose the Latin theme. She likes them. He does NOT restrict them artistically - the selection of Anna Karenina, for example, was made by Artur himself, not by Mishin or anyone else.
    That's nice, but the problem is that Mishin deletes choreography from his students' programs. I actually quite like some of Artur's musical choices but Liza should not be allowed to have the same Latin program for years on end because it places her in an artistic rut and presents her to the judges as a one-trick pony, artistically. Mishin's skaters are generally deficient in choreography, transitions, and spins. I don't see much of Buttle or Lambiel's influence in the choreography. Absent the very real issues of Liza's growth spurt and Artur's personal issues, they have serious problems with their skating that Mishin is either unable or unwilling to address. That's the point that people are making. Mishin's track record on spins, choreography, transitions, stretch, line, posture is not amazing. He teaches amazing jump technique, and I think he's helped Liza harness her natural charisma in the same way he helped Plushenko, but all her spunk and fire can't overcome her low spin levels, her low TR scores, and her bad posture.

    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    A coach change is not a magical antidote to every problem. Sometimes it only makes the problem worse. Look at Abbott - all those coaching changes and no-one has ever managed to fix HIS head.
    What do you mean, "all those coaching changes?" Jeremy went to Tom Z when he was 14 and switched coaches to Jason and Yuka ten years later.

  4. #44
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    Mishin can definitely teach proper jump technique but his 'only jumps matter' approach is outdated and doesn't cut it any more, under IJS.

    Yes, Mishin's skaters work with outside choreographers but what is the point if he then scraps the programs or takes all of the difficult stuff out?
    Last edited by Ziggy; 12-30-2013 at 05:43 AM.

  5. #45

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    Well, something isn't working; I won't venture to guess what. It just seems that Gachinskii's senior career has been more miss than hit, and maybe a change would help.
    My job requires me to be a juggler, but that does not mean that I enjoy working with clowns.

  6. #46

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    Okay, fine.

    So, to all those who are so set on sending either or both skaters elsewhere:

    Who would you send them to?

    Tarasova is obviously out.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post

    Who would you send them to?

    Tarasova is obviously out.
    Rafael Arutunian.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by risto1803 View Post
    Rafael Arutunian.
    Oh yes. Because I'm sure an American coach would do their political standing with their federation so much good.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The other sad thing for her is even if she had skated 2 perfect performances at Nationals, the way Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova skated, she probably would have finished only 3rd and still not made the team.
    My sense is that she feared this was the most likely scenario all season long, and all summer, too. From what I saw at SA, she skated a lot better in practice than in competition.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Okay, fine.

    So, to all those who are so set on sending either or both skaters elsewhere:

    Who would you send them to?

    Tarasova is obviously out.
    Rukavitsyn

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Oh yes. Because I'm sure an American coach would do their political standing with their federation so much good.
    Rafael is an Armenian-Russian living in America, isn't he? Other countries send skaters to him all the time. Russia sent ice dancers to Marina Zueva's group. I don't see why Tarasova is automatically an impossibility either.

    If domestic coaches are mandatory, Liza should go to Eteri Tutberidze. She and Ilia Averbukh did very well this season designing interesting programs to mask Julia's flaws, and they appear to be working on her other issues at a good clip. Goncharenko might work too. Artur I would also send to Tutberidze.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    I don't see why Tarasova is automatically an impossibility either.
    So you want to remove Artur from a situation with Plushenko and put him straight in with Kovtun, with whom he has bad blood, and which I'm sure will do wonders for his psychological problems, which undoubtedly weren't helped by seeing Kovtun do WORSE than he did at Worlds and get coddled for it?

  13. #53
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    Why are you being so vicious? Why are you assuming that every suggestion in this thread is a plot to destabilize Artur and Liza? And why are you assuming that Artur is so mentally weak as to be unable to deal with a little in-rink rivalry? He's not a china doll and he'snot a child. He's a young man who has been strong enough to stay in the sport even through a couple of weak seasons. Perhaps having an opponent who is more on his level and able to be surpassed will let Artur relax a bit. Skating every day with one of the masters of the sport must be good in some levels, but it might also be hard for him to judge himself accurately and above all positively.

  14. #54

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    Tuk will likely not progress (will keep dropping) in Russian Nationals standings, considering the depth of talent in Russian Jr and Novice ladies. Given her Central Asian roots, I would not be surprised to see skating for another country in 1 or 2 years' time.
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

  15. #55
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    That is a weird assertion. Liza is a Russian citizen born in Russia to Russian citizens, she might be part of one of Russia's ethnic minorities but that doesn't mean she'll automatically be able to get citizenship for a central Asian country.

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    There are tons of good coaches in Russia. Rukavitsyn sounds really kind and thoughtful and he also works in Saint-Petersburg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Given her Central Asian roots, I would not be surprised to see skating for another country in 1 or 2 years' time.
    What Central Asian roots?

    She's from Glazov in the Western Urals. I would think it's far more likely that she's an Udmurt than anything else.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    So you want to remove Artur from a situation with Plushenko and put him straight in with Kovtun, with whom he has bad blood, and which I'm sure will do wonders for his psychological problems, which undoubtedly weren't helped by seeing Kovtun do WORSE than he did at Worlds and get coddled for it?
    Wait. Kovtun said once they didn't get on well when they were 11-13 y/o and you assume they have bad blood?
    They aren't buddies, that's right, but ever since Maxim is on top level Artur never said a bad word of him; Artur is very correct about other skaters, usually he doesn't even mention anybody if he's not asked the direct question.
    Here's what he said of Kovtun after the SP at Rostelecom Cup:
    Maxim gathered two quads in the SP, that itself is a good result, for now he is the only one who does this in Russia. He was great and received good points, but we also won't surrender without fighting.
    http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20131122/702754654.html
    That doesn't look like he has some problem with Max. He just minds his own business.
    Last edited by navire; 12-30-2013 at 06:38 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    Rafael is an Armenian-Russian living in America, isn't he? Other countries send skaters to him all the time. Russia sent ice dancers to Marina Zueva's group. I don't see why Tarasova is automatically an impossibility either.

    If domestic coaches are mandatory, Liza should go to Eteri Tutberidze. She and Ilia Averbukh did very well this season designing interesting programs to mask Julia's flaws, and they appear to be working on her other issues at a good clip. Goncharenko might work too. Artur I would also send to Tutberidze.
    Tutberidze's Group is crowded already, she has Julia, Voronov, Pitkeev, Medvedeva etc
    I doubt she can accompany that many skaters

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    So you want to remove Artur from a situation with Plushenko and put him straight in with Kovtun, with whom he has bad blood, and which I'm sure will do wonders for his psychological problems, which undoubtedly weren't helped by seeing Kovtun do WORSE than he did at Worlds and get coddled for it?
    Even if they don't have bad blood, I doubt that Tarasova will be able to politically push two skaters that are competing against each other. It just won't be a good situation. It could be worse than Yagudin & Plushenko in Mishin's group.

    IMO both Liza and Artur learned jump techniques from Mishin which is good. Mentally they are not tough like Plushenko, so they would need coaches that can work on that aspect, and packaging. I don't know enough about the coaches in Russia, and don't know if they are willing to move abroad to train (not necessarily to compete for another country). otherwise Brian Orser may be a good coach for Artur.

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