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  1. #141

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    The problem is not that you want to understand the judging criteria more and would like it if Aussie Willy could explain more for you. That's fine. However, your whole demanding and entitled attitude and over-the-top dramatics is way out-of-line. Maybe you should take a break from V/M fandom and gain some perspective on life because it seriously sounds like even if a knowledgeable poster gave you a point-on-point detailed analysis of D/W's programs and why they get the scores they do, you'd find some window(s) to jump on that person and argue until you brow-beat the poster to the point where they'd leave the thread (which defeats your purpose since you just want knowledgeable posters to say V/M are robbed and that D/W should not even be close to them).
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  2. #142
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    It's unfortunate that now it comes down perceiving this whole discussion to crazy V/M ubers rudely demanding answers because we don't agree with the judging. It's just weird that we can have discussions of Chanflation, TATflation, RussianBabiesFlation, RussianPolitiksFlation, NorthAmerianMediaBiasSLCFlation, but when it comes to questioning D/W's marks it's all hands off and quickly we are labeled blind and crazy and demonic.

    I just want to say that I want to give AW all the due respect and whenever she finds time I hope she can come back to elaborate on her earlier posts and not just dismiss this as a crazy uber war.

    Does V/M have more blurred skating to the music compare to D/W, but tighter than the rest of the field? PCS wise, D/W is slightly higher than V/M, and both D/W and V/M have somewhat of an solid lead over the rest of the field... does that mean D/W and V/M are still considered in their own class of tightness, and B/S P/B W/P I/K C/L are blurrier?? See how I find that vague and why I really want to know the distinction not just a comparison of V/M and D/W but in the more macro sense of the sport that is Ice Dance?

    Also besides the content and use of music, what about blade work and skating techniques judged in PCS and how it is weighted compare to the former? I think this is an easy question that doesn't require time to answer because it's just simply 1) more important, 2)less important 3) equally important.

    If you want to say uber blindness will never see it, then don't use V/M vs D/W. Use B/S vs W/P, I/K vs P/B and how tightness of content and use of music reflect in the competitions they skated in and the marks they received. AW may not have the time to explain for now and that's perfectly reasonable. But there are others that agree with AW's stance and ergo you understand what that means... and maybe you like to pitch in...?

  3. #143

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    For most skaters there are Ubers who can be blinded and then Ubers who are actually interested in learning / hearing from others. And for a variety of reasons there seem to be skaters who have more Ubers in the former category while others have more in the latter. But either way all fans are not the same.

    I have some theories on the reasons for the differences but after writing out a few attempts at paragraphs laying them out I decided I won't waste space here explaining them.

    I guess my point is that not all fans of skaters or even UBERS of skaters should be painted with the same brush. And in the case of this thread - people shouldn't lump all the Virtue and Moir Ubers together as people just wanting to b*tch about results not being what they want even though I fully admit that those people exist.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    It's unfortunate that now it comes down perceiving this whole discussion to crazy V/M ubers rudely demanding answers because we don't agree with the judging. It's just weird that we can have discussions of Chanflation, TATflation, RussianBabiesFlation, RussianPolitiksFlation, NorthAmerianMediaBiasSLCFlation, but when it comes to questioning D/W's marks it's all hands off and quickly we are labeled blind and crazy and demonic.

    I just want to say that I want to give AW all the due respect and whenever she finds time I hope she can come back to elaborate on her earlier posts and not just dismiss this as a crazy uber war.
    I don't think this is a crazy uber war at all. It's Subway throwing a tantrum cos she can't get what she wants. You want some explanation from AW too but don't come over all entitled, and know how to ask with respect even if you are a little frustrated that you can't get the answers you want - at this time. Hopefully AW will come back in a week or two and help us all again.
    As The Accordian said please don't paint all fans with the same brush.
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  5. #145
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    This thread is proof that no good deed goes unpunished. ((((((Aussie Willy))))))

  6. #146
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    I love how the title of this thread invites dance experts to provide input, excludes uber fans and once an expert is lured in and provides help, VM uber fans shoot her down because they don't like the help. Shameful.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    I don't think this is a crazy uber war at all. It's Subway throwing a tantrum cos she can't get what she wants. You want some explanation from AW too but don't come over all entitled, and know how to ask with respect even if you are a little frustrated that you can't get the answers you want - at this time. Hopefully AW will come back in a week or two and help us all again.
    As The Accordian said please don't paint all fans with the same brush.
    Exactly. And now because of ONE V/M uber's ignorant, ill mannered and inconsiderate behaviour, the rest of us who are actually interested in an objective, detailed analysis on why D/W are getting more points than V/M won't get a chance to find out what Aussie Willy has to say on the matter.
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  8. #148
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    I still just want to politely state that although I appreciate AW's dedication and hard work to get to where she is with her earned credentials, it doesn't mean that we should let it be and not ask questions with respect. Keyword respect.

    For instance let's say hypothetically today a proven legit poster states that he was one of the judges on Rostelecom Cup and he said according to what he knows from the rulebook, B/S totally deserved to be 7 points higher than W/S in the SD and higher PCS across the board even with a fall. I doubt people would just say thank you for the statement and because you are a qualified judge that means you must be right... and not asking for clarifications.

  9. #149

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    Just a few thoughts. Let me preface by saying I am not an ice dance expert, not an international judge, don't have a favorite dance team among those currently competing, and also haven't watched the 2013 Worlds free dances since 2013 Worlds.

    I do have some thoughts in response to this thread and to one post in particular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    How is this stuff quantified? A series of hops, pose lifts, twirls (two-footed) and skips, say, does that tick more boxes than when the woman does a series of unassisted turns following (tracking) the curve of her partner traveling on a back outside edge? That's two seconds or so where the latter team only did that one phrase while the former team did all that stuff. So I guess Team 2 did less.
    You can't really compare 2 seconds of two programs to get a sense of which team was better overall or deserved to win. You could use 2 seconds as an example if those seconds represent trends throughout the program. I don't know whether that is the case. Are these 2 seconds even chosen from comparable parts of the program.

    I can guess which teams you're referring to respectively as teams 1 and 2 here, but I'll just address the question in general terms.

    I would say that a hops, pose lifts, and skips are not skating skills per se, but transitioning quickly between hopping and skipping vs. gliding on edges would demonstrate good agility and control, and balance (the first criterion under the Skating Skills component). Twirls (two-footed) would probably be easy skating skills.
    Doing all these things quickly in time with quick music would demonstrate especially good control and probably interpretation of the music. If they're both in time with the music they will probably both be in time with each other and thereby demonstrate good unison and shared purpose for interpreting the music.

    The woman doing a series of unassisted turns following (tracking) the curve of her partner traveling on a back outside edge would probably demonstrate good skating skills by the woman -- assuming good quality to those turns and the edges between them, especially if there are some difficult turns and changes of rotational direction. The partner holding a simple back outside edge would be demonstrating a quite easy skating skill, perhaps with very good quality. The fact that they're executing different skills of different levels of difficulty at the same time would demonstrate unequal sharing of the responsibilities under Skating Skills and Interpretation, and it's not a moment choroegraphed to show unison. The fact that the curves track each other would be better unison than if they didn't, especially if the body lines match at the entry and exit of the woman's turn series.

    Isn't "relationship" to music important? Where is "tight with the music" in CoP?
    The criteria for the Interpretation component are:
    Effortless Movements in Time to the Music
    Expression of the music’s style, character, and rhythm
    Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music
    Relationship between the partners reflecting the character of the music
    Appropriateness of music

    I can't speak for Aussie Willy, but I understood what she was getting at using her own terminology would be that "tight" with the music would mean specific movements were in time with specific beats, highlights, and nuances of the music a very large percentage of the time, and "loose" would be a looser correspondence between movement and music.

    Using my own terminology, I would say it could be a difference between interpreting the music on a beat-by-beat, note-by-note level, vs. on the level of whole phrases at a time.

    Or loose could mean going in and out of correspondence.

    What about the SKATING?
    What about it?

    In the current judging system, there are numerous scores that go into the final result. To compare two teams that are so close, you would have to look at each piece of the scoring to see where each gained more or fewer points than the other.

    For the elements -- did they earn the same levels?
    If points were lost to levels, that has nothing to do with the judges -- that can be attributed to the elements as choreographed, to the execution by the skaters on that day, and/or to the determinations by the technical panel.

    What about GOEs? Did more judges give higher GOEs on more elements to one team than the other?
    Look at the specific elements and try to determine, according to the very detailed ice dance rules (which I would need to look up), why judges might have rated one lift or one step sequence higher than another.

    Then there are five program components, which look at different aspects of each program as a whole. As with the GOEs, with teams that are close in ability individual judges might disagree with each other about which criteria for each component each team excelled at and which criteria in that component to weight more heavily in arriving at a score for that component.

    For a given team, judges also might disagree on which component was strongest or weakest of the five, and how much better on a scale of 0-10. But the weighting between components is built into the system.

    And all the judges' scores are averaged, so the result will be based on trends in the preferences by these judges on this panel looking at these performances that day.

    It might be interesting to get a different group of people who have studied the rules to watch the performances on video and point out how they would reward each GOE and each component as if they were officially judging. Of course, watching on video loses a lot of the impact of the live performance, and knowing the official results in advance means that no one could go into the exercise unbiased even if they have no preference between those particular teams.

    But analyzing element by element and component by component would take time. And at this point in the 2013-2014 season, analyzing a 2013 season competition in that detail may not be top priority for people who have the knowledge (or at least are willing to read the dance rules and try to apply them) and the relative lack of bias.

    If this thread can get back on track, maybe provide links to the performances and choose for analysis one or two elements, one or two components, that might give insight into the results.
    Last edited by gkelly; 11-24-2013 at 03:16 PM.

  10. #150
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    just read the thread. Subway, i bow to your cleverness and attitude. thank you.

    we all know the truth about the whole subject, but for some people it's just too embarassing to admit it.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustyskater View Post
    I love how the title of this thread invites dance experts to provide input, excludes uber fans and once an expert is lured in and provides help, one VM uber fan shot her down because they didn't like the help. Shameful.
    I corrected it for you

    ETA: Thank you gkelly
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    just read the thread. Subway, i bow to your cleverness and attitude. thank you.

    we all know the truth about the whole subject, but for some people it's just too embarassing to admit it.
    If you (and Subway) know the truth, then what are the both of you doing in this thread? Oh right, to stir up shit. Trolls.
    Men and I are like pianos - when they get upright, I feel grand!

  13. #153

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    You know, I know next to nothing about ice dance. My pbp from SDU was sort of, "Yay, this is fun!". I found AW's post really interesting because I know nothing and wanted to learn. This thread could have been a great learning tool for someone like me, who doesn't know anything.

    However, I wasn't expecting details from AW at this point. Maybe some of you need to pull your heads out of your backside and understand this. Australia does not seperate our Nationals. We have ALL OF THEM TOGETHER. Synchro, Adult, Primary, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, Senior, ALL AT THE ONE COMPETITION. AW must be sorely lacking in time at the moment (especially considering, like all people involved in Australian skating, has a real job outside skating), and to have someone chucking a tantrum because she did not say what they wanted them to say, and driving AW away from this thread and further explanations that might have helped more people like me.

    For the record, I may not watch ice dance, but the behaviour of the VM ubers - particularly you sekret baby lunatics - does not incline me to like them.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    You know, I know next to nothing about ice dance. My pbp from SDU was sort of, "Yay, this is fun!". I found AW's post really interesting because I know nothing and wanted to learn. This thread could have been a great learning tool for someone like me, who doesn't know anything.

    However, I wasn't expecting details from AW at this point. Maybe some of you need to pull your heads out of your backside and understand this. Australia does not seperate our Nationals. We have ALL OF THEM TOGETHER. Synchro, Adult, Primary, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, Senior, ALL AT THE ONE COMPETITION. AW must be sorely lacking in time at the moment (especially considering, like all people involved in Australian skating, has a real job outside skating), and to have someone chucking a tantrum because she did not say what they wanted them to say, and driving AW away from this thread and further explanations that might have helped more people like me.

    For the record, I may not watch ice dance, but the behaviour of the VM ubers - particularly you sekret baby lunatics - does not incline me to like them.
    First I have t say thanks for supporting AW who has been treated abominably.
    Second, I have to say - again - please do not lump all fans in together. Some posters in the thread are VM ubers, many are simply fans of skating. The has been only one VM uber in this thread who has been out of line.
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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    You know when I was reading Aussie Willie's remarks, it's almost as if nobody is evaluating the skating. It's ticking boxes. Let's not even see which team is the stronger skaters - like that's the premise they start with so nobody even looks at that. It's all this program versus that program, like fans do. And it's only with these teams. With other teams, they actually have to skate their program (as do VM).
    If a team is truly the "greatest of their generation," ticking boxes should come easy for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanne7 View Post
    You don't go to court without evidence to argue your case.
    Since FSU is now a court of law, I demand that senior international dance experts (current judges - NO V/M ubers or anyone who has ever posted on the V/M thread) come into this thread and give a detailed analysis of why V/M won the Olympics in 2010 and Worlds in 2010, 2012. If no one can do that, then I assert that V/M's wins are fraudulent.

  16. #156
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    gkelly, thanks so much for your explanations, they make sense, and I think this is what many people are trying to understand, in that when someone uses the term "light", or "ticking the boxes", especially a judge, it is frustrating because it leads to all kinds of interpretation and the semblance of very subjective criteria, or lack of clarity as to what exactly the objective ones are.
    ONE "uber" fan disrespectfully seeking information does not represent all of the VM fans, who by the way can read many snide remarks written about them in other threads.
    Disrespect does not only happen against one certain team and their fans.

  17. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    For instance let's say hypothetically today a proven legit poster states that he was one of the judges on Rostelecom Cup and he said according to what he knows from the rulebook, B/S totally deserved to be 7 points higher than W/S in the SD and higher PCS across the board even with a fall. I doubt people would just say thank you for the statement and because you are a qualified judge that means you must be right... and not asking for clarifications.
    I see what you are getting at, but I don't see any "thank you for the statement" and leaving it at that. Of course there is nothing wrong with asking for clarifications, and I think most people here are not afraid to do so. But as you say, asking for them respectfully is important. Not acting like the tinfoil hat on your head is too tight and claiming that a lack of more detailed information is part of the great sekret conspiracy to hide the truth.
    Last edited by overedge; 11-24-2013 at 07:35 PM.
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  18. #158

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    I am just popping in because I want to say thank you for the messages of support and rep points that people have given me. I really appreciate it and those who actually find what I have to say interesting and worthwhile.

    I like coming on this forum because it is interesting and there is a lot of passion about skating. For myself being in Australia it keeps me in touch with what goes on internationally because as most of you know we are a very small skating nation. So I really appreciate all the clips that get posted, the pbp of competitions that I can't watch because my live stream has stuffed up or even the links to the latest communications.

    I don't think I come on this forum to say "I am a judge so I know better than most of you". I have always tried to explain things as to how they fit into the rules and guidelines. Because at the end of the day this is a sport where there are multiple perceptions and interpretations. With judging it is about trying to quantify things and analysis why it works within the system. However I hope that when people have questions I can provide some answers or give some understanding as to why results may happen. But it also helps me learn and become a better judge. You may not like what I have to say or agree with it. But that is life anyway.

    However for someone to accuse me though of not answering one type of question because I don't want to and insinuating I have something to hide or questions how busy I really am, that person can GFT. I come here to take a break from what I am doing because trust me, at the moment I am work my f*cking volunteer arse off (along with a number of others) on top of my full time paid job to put on a National championship. Sitting at home constantly working on emails, spreadsheets, lists, schedules, etc, you need a diversion otherwise you would go mad. As well as visting FSU these diversions also include patting and brushing the cat because at the moment he is missing out on quality lap time.

    Okay I have said my piece. Again thank you for the support. It really is appreciated.
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  19. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    For the record, I may not watch ice dance, but the behaviour of the VM ubers - particularly you sekret baby lunatics - does not incline me to like them.
    I hope this thread does not become a V&M uber bashing thread.
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  20. #160
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    WTG Aussie Willie!
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