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  1. #81
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    Do you think that the illusion that D&W have more speed could play into this? I've read countless times on the boards that if you skate in dance holds you seem to be slower because you take up less space on the ice, but if you skate side by side, you appear to be faster. I've heard from people who have seen them both live that if you pay attention, D&W don't actually have more speed. But could this be playing into some of the 'advantage' that they seem to have?

    Thank you everyone for your posts -they are very insightful!! I look forward to reading what you come up with over the weekend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanne7 View Post
    As an ice dance novice judge in Oz, Willie Aussie is not an expert in senior world level ice dance
    This may surprise you, but *all* judges in ISU-affiliated federations, no matter what level they judge at, have to go to training to familiarize themselves with the IJS and its requirements. And the dances in the Australian novice ice dance test are all international-level dances. So I would respectfully suggest that Aussie Willie has a great deal more knowledge about ice dance than your patronizing description would indicate.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    You can have it dismissed before you even go to court based on the merits or rule of law. If you're on the defendant's side of a criminal case, you don't have to present evidence. You can just poke holes in the prosecution to create reasonable doubt. Besides, this isn't a court-of-law nor is this even a debate where we're looking for a winner. It's just people having a discussion and pointing out their own ideas about the subject at hand. Of course people are free to disagree with each other's opinions or the logic of one's arguments. However, one shouldn't dictate how other people should or should not post on this public thread.

    Anyway, you created your own rule here, but you had no problem with every other poster pointing out why they agreed with the original poster despite not providing any of the so-called evidence you're all of a sudden requiring. Nor did you question their credentials to see if they are qualified to post on this topic. Since you're such a stickler to proper procedure...how would you vet posters who choose to post here? Are you going to ask for their credentials? Background? Give out a test?

    Your real problem is the team that is the subject of this slight criticism.

    I mean I could point out, from my eye-witness testimony of the video evidence that I've watched and re-watched, how Tessa's lines have suffered a bit since 2010 (at least this season thus far, but I blame Marina for that), how their elements aren't as clean (which explains why their TES have dropped in comparison to D/W), how V/M are more prone to mistakes now than before (such as Tessa's messed up twizzles in Worlds 2013 SD). However, when I say it like that, it makes it sound like I'm way too critical of V/M, which I don't want to sound like. I know how one mild criticism can make some people think that it means something bigger and more dramatic (like "deteriorating").

    Just to be clear, I still think they are the best ice dance team in the world according to my personal preferences (which is what many of you are doing), and I prefer them to D/W.
    Unless a crime has been committed which falls under the criminal code, the case would go to civil court where the criteria you discuss would not apply. If you were called to provide "expert testimony" how would you list your credentials?

    Seriously, tho I thought we were discussing technique, not preference as to & why D/W in the past year have scored higher than V/M in most competitions.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    This may surprise you, but *all* judges in ISU-affiliated federations, no matter what level they judge at, have to go to training to familiarize themselves with the IJS and its requirements. And the dances in the Australian novice ice dance test are all international-level dances. So I would respectfully suggest that Aussie Willie has a great deal more knowledge about ice dance than your patronizing description would indicate.
    It wasn't my intention to be patronizing & I didn't say s/he wasn't knowledgeable - sorry for any offence.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanne7 View Post
    It wasn't my intention to be patronizing & I didn't say s/he wasn't knowledgeable - sorry for any offence.
    You said
    As an ice dance novice judge in Oz, Willie Aussie is not an expert in senior world level ice dance
    I don't think you have anything to apologize for, you stated a fact.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanne7 View Post
    Unless a crime has been committed which falls under the criminal code, the case would go to civil court where the criteria you discuss would not apply. If you were called to provide "expert testimony" how would you list your credentials?
    You didn't say anything like that. You just said "you wouldn't go to court without evidence." You never specified civil or criminal procedure. Also, are you really saying you want to apply the same standards that one would have as an expert witness in a court of law to one who is posting in this thread? Then you and everybody else here with the exception of Aussie Willy (whose credentials are already challenged) would not be allowed to post.

    Seriously, tho I thought we were discussing technique, not preference as to & why D/W in the past year have scored higher than V/M in most competitions.
    Actually, that was the intention, but then people all over this thread are stating their preferences in the guise of it being about technique. They are also thinking they're giving an objective analysis on quantifiable or even qualifiable factors, but their analysis tends to be vague. I mean all the questions and earnest pleadings to understand the difference in the scores all really sound pretextual to me.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    If a novice ice dance judge isn't knowledgeable enough to post in this thread, who is? Are you an elite senior ice dance judge? I don't think so. Every post in this thread is an opinion - some more knowledgeable than others. I think (fandom aside) you have to look at facts:

    Fact one: the judges don't hate V&M - evidence is all the gold medals V&M have received
    Fact two: V&M aren't winning as often as they used to

    Conclusion: either V&M have deteriorated or else D&W have improved.


    The only way you can argue against this conclusion is that you are an uber who refuses to face facts.
    Or VM are making more mistakes than DW and don't have the consistency of DW. I think that is a factor with DW winning over VM the past 2 years.
    I'm not spoiled...I deserve all my stuff.

  8. #88
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    That's what I also think has been the difference. Obvious and quantifiable mistakes and sometimes skating tight for V and M over M and C who rarely if ever make mistakes. I still think V and M are superior overall but denying the overall improvement by M and C is unfair. Do I think think things like line and posture, hand to hand holds vs dance holds, speed vs edge etc are being rewarded enough, no. But V and M have made mistakes at almost every meeting with M and C. I do think that is the biggest difference. I think the SD of V and M is superb and way better but right now the free is a huge work in progress. I still find M and C frantic though less then before and I find some of their lift transitions awkward but I do think try attack their programs. t and S have struggled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uandmfan View Post
    Do you think that the illusion that D&W have more speed could play into this? I've read countless times on the boards that if you skate in dance holds you seem to be slower because you take up less space on the ice, but if you skate side by side, you appear to be faster. I've heard from people who have seen them both live that if you pay attention, D&W don't actually have more speed. But could this be playing into some of the 'advantage' that they seem to have?

    Thank you everyone for your posts -they are very insightful!! I look forward to reading what you come up with over the weekend!
    When you see skating live, you really don't have any doubts as to who is the fastest. So even if we at home are fooled (and think we know who is faster), the judges in the arena can tell. So I don't think D/W are getting any brownie pts from the judges because they appear to be faster to the TV audience.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post

    I don't think you have anything to apologize for, you stated a fact.
    In the words of Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan: You’re entitled to your own opinions. You’re not entitled to your own facts.

    Someone who is judging novice-level ice dance competitions and tests is trained in IJS and is trained in assessing international-level competitive dances. The novices are doing some of the same dances that are being done at the senior level in international competition.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    You didn't say anything like that. You just said "you wouldn't go to court without evidence." You never specified civil or criminal procedure. Also, are you really saying you want to apply the same standards that one would have as an expert witness in a court of law to one who is posting in this thread? Then you and everybody else here with the exception of Aussie Willy (whose credentials are already challenged) would not be allowed to post.



    Actually, that was the intention, but then people all over this thread are stating their preferences in the guise of it being about technique. They are also thinking they're giving an objective analysis on quantifiable or even qualifiable factors, but their analysis tends to be vague. I mean all the questions and earnest pleadings to understand the difference in the scores all really sound pretextual to me.
    blah, blah, blah

  12. #92
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    LMFAO.

  13. #93

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    Interesting developments in this thread.

    Being a Novice level judge is where I have got to in terms of judging at Nationals. You do have to successfully trial judge at Nationals and then have the opportunity to be on a panel. I have not had the opportunities with regards Senior judging, mainly because we don't get to see much of it here (at Nationals we only have 3 senior teams and one junior team this year). However I have judged Senior and Junior Dance at a couple of competitions (not Nationals). So regardless of where I sit Nationally, I still if the chance arises get to judge higher level dances.

    However when it comes to learning how to judge dance, that is an on-going process. The Dance seminar I did last year was excellent for helping me understand the criteria and what to look for. Dance judging is so much more difficult than the other disciplines (and Synchro judging is another kettle of fish that I have no interest in). So whilst I may not have the actual experience (because at the end of the day it is really difficult to get here) I think I probably have a reasonable degree of qualification and understanding to be able to comment and provide information from my level of knowledge and perspective. Also I have found my musical knowledge really helps me understand maybe some things that other judges don't (yes even high level judges).

    The biggest thing I gained from the seminar, which I think I ended up posting about on this forum last year, was distinguishing between what I like personally and then looking at how a team fulfils the criteria. I saw in a earlier post questioning about ticking the boxes. Well yes it is.

    Put it this way. If I was to give a skater a 1.00 for any of the PCS, as a justification I could say "the skater made no attempt to address the criteria". I have said in a previous post here that why I felt D&W were the top team last year is they totally addressed the criteria, particularly when it came to the utilisation of the music.

    Someone ask me to explain why I felt V&M were not tight. Will try my best. Again this is only going by my remember impressions but my remembered impressions stuck in my mind pretty well because I was applying what I had learnt at the seminar. So I was also learning at the same time.

    I found that V&M, whilst they had beautiful flow and movement, were less sharp, there was less of the music they worked with, the timing was not as strict. So it blurred rather than stood out. I find if I am questioning the timing and if what they did reflected the actual music, then I have to question whether they were fulfilling the criteria as outlined in the communications and documents we use to assist our judging.

    I am not like a lot of people in that I am constantly questioning what we use to judge by. I really do just accept it. That is why I don't get my knickers in a knot over the ins and outs of IJS and what others perceive as problems I just don't see it. Please don't flame me for that.

    Anyway I hope that helps explains about my judging levels and experience.

    BTW - have to add - saw our ignorant offensive little troll friend got banned.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Interesting developments in this thread.

    I am not like a lot of people in that I am constantly questioning what we use to judge by. I really do just accept it. That is why I don't get my knickers in a knot over the ins and outs of IJS and what others perceive as problems I just don't see it. Please don't flame me for that.

    Anyway I hope that helps explains about my judging levels and experience.

    BTW - have to add - saw our ignorant offensive little troll friend got banned.
    Thanks for generously clarifying your experience and training, believe me, I'm not flaming you for this part of your post. "Constant questioning" is not a negative trait, it means that one is constantly thinking critically of the parameters towards the goal of advancing and learning for oneself and for the sport. Judges should be more accountable to the skaters and to the coaches, they should be able to understand the justification for their scores. Fans as well, but obviously not to the same degree, after all we are calling this a sport, it's not a reality show.
    Given all that is going on with ice dance scores, especially now after the SD at Rostelcom, it seems to have grown past a DW vs VM debate, it disappoints me to read this sentiment of passively accepting judging guidelines.

    Fans are questioning the system, why aren't officials doing the same?

  15. #95
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    I appreciate the lengthy response AussieWilly while you are very busy with your Nationals coming up. But I still have questions though in particular this

    I found that V&M, whilst they had beautiful flow and movement, were less sharp, there was less of the music they worked with, the timing was not as strict. So it blurred rather than stood out. I find if I am questioning the timing and if what they did reflected the actual music, then I have to question whether they were fulfilling the criteria as outlined in the communications and documents we use to assist our judging.
    What exactly does this mean "less of the music they work with"... And for the timing, do you mean V/M don't dance to the beat of the music? Also what they did didn't reflect the actual music, can you elaborate more on that? Do you mean their choreography does not fit the music to their Waltz+Polka SD and Carmen FD last year??

    Also, was there any guidelines on judging regarding the body lines, extensions, spatial awareness, edging, close dance holds, multi-directional skating, transfer of center of gravity etc. Things that I thought were important in ice dance in the past. If there is, do you also find V/M lacking in those categories compare to D/W, or does the lack of tightness in the content (I"m taking your word for now because I still don't actually know what that really means) trump everything else in the PCS when judging Ice Dance with the guidelines now?

  16. #96

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    Aussie Willy! Thanks for your time (and courage lol) in sharing your knowledge and opinions. Personally I really appreciate you doing that here, as I did last year when so many people were crying foul at NDP beating Carmen. I have long admired DW but I admit I am a VM uber, Seeing them live at Worlds did clarify some things for me but it also really helped to have someone try to explain the results from a judge's POV.
    As far as the suggestion above about judges needing to question the system, I would imagine that as a judge you can't be questioning the system while you are judging or your head would explode.

    Ice dance is a difficult discipline to figure out a system for judging to be sure. Although I certainly agree with those who see flaws in IJS judging of dance, I do agree with the direction of the system since 6.0 now attempting to compare apples and oranges. It doesn't mean I don't often disagree with the results But I can accept that that the discrepancy between what I see (and for that matter what fans in general see) and the results exists at least partially because of a lack of understanding of those boxes that need to be ticked versus the boxes we WISH/ BELIEVE needed to be ticked etc.

    I have been involved for several years in the Canadian Improv Games and although it is on a completely different scale (obviously) there is a similar issue fairly often. There is a criteria for judging that involves rating the teams on several points - ticking off boxes to some extent. If you watch the scenes and pick the one you enjoy most it is quite regularly the one that will also score well but sometimes a scene you really enjoy won't address some of the criteria as well as another less enjoyable scene. This becomes even more obvious when the teams are very close in skill - similarly to VM and DW. When there are two amazing improv teams, someone has to win and it often comes down to criteria being met / boxes being ticked slightly better.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    As far as the suggestion above about judges needing to question the system, I would imagine that as a judge you can't be questioning the system while you are judging or your head would explode.
    I really don't see the point of questioning the system for myself. I have enough on my plate as it is. I just go out and judge according to the criteria. I will leave the questioning and criticism of the system to everyone else. But I have been shot down in the past on this forum for not doing it myself and questioned why as judge I don't care enough about it. Seriously I have bigger fish to fry and more important things to deal with on a day to day basis in the sport (such as now dealing with a National championship).

    What I can say is I am really looking forward to seeing Dani and Greg perform next week. Now that I am excited about.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I appreciate the lengthy response AussieWilly while you are very busy with your Nationals coming up. But I still have questions though in particular this



    What exactly does this mean "less of the music they work with"... And for the timing, do you mean V/M don't dance to the beat of the music? Also what they did didn't reflect the actual music, can you elaborate more on that? Do you mean their choreography does not fit the music to their Waltz+Polka SD and Carmen FD last year??

    Also, was there any guidelines on judging regarding the body lines, extensions, spatial awareness, edging, close dance holds, multi-directional skating, transfer of center of gravity etc. Things that I thought were important in ice dance in the past. If there is, do you also find V/M lacking in those categories compare to D/W, or does the lack of tightness in the content (I"m taking your word for now because I still don't actually know what that really means) trump everything else in the PCS when judging Ice Dance with the guidelines now?
    I will be perfectly honest, I know you would love an indepth explanation about all this stuff, but I really don't have time. I will have to leave you in confusion.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Well there you have it.

    Speaking for myself, I'm not confused about the skating. I trust my eyes, and I trust my critical faculties.

    It's amazing how people have time to participate in a discussion on an ongoing basis but lack the time to answer specific questions, as if getting specific is oh so time consuming and complicated. It certainly isn't.

    I think people are somewhat confused about how ice dancing judging has evolved to where ice dance judges aren't really evaluating either figure skating or ice dance when they judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Well there you have it.

    Speaking for myself, I'm not confused about the skating. I trust my eyes, and I trust my critical faculties.

    It's amazing how people have time to participate in a discussion on an ongoing basis but lack the time to answer specific questions, as if getting specific is oh so time consuming and complicated. It certainly isn't.

    I think people are somewhat confused about how ice dancing judging has evolved to where ice dance judges aren't really evaluating either figure skating or ice dance when they judge.
    From now on I will ignore this thread. I come here just to take a break from what I am doing (which you have no freaking clue what I am) and maybe give some people an insight. The answers people would like more detail on require a bit more in depth review and maybe sitting down and watching programs which I don't have time to do because I want to do it properly. I am quite happy to answer questions. I think I am very generous and honest with my time and answers with what I can do. But I do not deserve to be insulted like this. So farewell from this thread.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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